FAR SIDE OF THE MOON

[Luke Pemberton]

A distant object is small in the photo.  The only way to make it of comparable size to photographs taken from nearby is to resize and crop that portion of the distant photo.  You can't do that without making it blurry.  This is basic photography.  The recording medium has a natural resolution.  When you magnify what it records, it doesn't magically add data that the original medium was unable to record.

You mean like this...

[onebigmonkey]

You mean like this...

We can laugh, but there are CSI fans worldwide that believe this is actually possible.

[Zakalwe]

Not ignoring you here, just not following the thread properly. I have back pain at the moment, so sitting at a computer is not the most comfortable activity and focus on the detail is poor. The muscles between my shoulder blades cramped up 2 weeks ago and I'm in some discomfort. It is the reason that I am not partaking in the thread as much as I normally do.

Ouch, GWS.
I had a similar problem in February which ended up flaring into pinched nerves in my spine. Cue the worst 4 weeks of pain that I have ever felt. I have never been so grateful for modern medicine, namely Co-Codomol,  Amitriptyline, Naproxen and Diazepam.
Try and get some physio if you can...I ignored a stiff neck and muscle cramps for a couple of weeks. What then happened is that the muscles swelled and ended up pinching the nerve bundles coming out of my spine at C4, which then created a feedback loop-the pinched nerves caused pain and spasms, which then pinched the nerves more and so-on. At it's worst, I had no power in my left arm, no feeling in my fingers and a loss of movement in my hand.

[ka9q]

Chock full of laugh out loud moments, I'm surprised it didn't get a reprint. I could potentially organise a reprint at cost if I had any contact with him and a wee bit of market research.

At the very least the author should set up a website with the pdf file and a Paypal link for donations. I'd certainly kick him a few bucks. The laughs are worth it.

[onebigmonkey]

I have a terrible pain in all the diodes down my left hand side.

[Apollo 957]

I would read the answer to my previous contribution on the far side of the moon, adding more doubt ... how far away the moon this picture was taken?

AS16-3021.jpg included herein

I do not know if this image was obtained by the CSM as it orbited the Moon or LM

This is clear from the naming scheme of the sections of the gallery I pointed you at. The 'revolution' is stated as 'Revolution TE' - the pictures in this magazine were taken after Trans-Earth injection - after the CM engine had been fired to send them back to Earth. You can browse those taken from the CM when in orbit in previous folders.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/catalog/metric/mission/?16

in any case limited to the height at which they were traveling could not portray the Moon in full size. The image mosaic part this photo suggests that the spacecraft moved away from the satellite, which would be right for the return trip, but the problem is that it is the opposite side of the Moon, traveled in the opposite direction Earth for this picture?

Look at the previous revolutions and this one in sequence.

You have to remember that the outward and return trips weren't going between two static points - when returning from Moon to Earth, they have to aim for the point where Earth will be in a couple of days time, NOT for a static point in space. This may on the return journey entail heading out from the far side, not from a side that's visible from Earth at the time, depending on how Earth and Moon are aligned at the time of TEI and where the Earth will be at the end of the journey.

and what happens with the date of April 25, with the return to Earth just two days later? all this seems at odds with the flight plan released NASA.

Isn't this accounted for by the fact that the Earth and the Moon are both in motion? If you disagree, post a link to the flight plan you're looking at, and state how April 25 fits into it.

[Apollo 957]

Not remotely close to the pic Tarkus quoted.

But which picture did he in fact cite? AS-16-3021.

No such exists.

It does, actually. It's part of the TE series of A16 mapping photos. AS16-3021.jpg, it's within the URL of the first instance of Tarkus posting the picture. Or AS16-M-3021.

And yes, this was referred to in post #4 ...

[onebigmonkey]

Not remotely close to the pic Tarkus quoted.

But which picture did he in fact cite? AS-16-3021.

No such exists.

It does, actually. It's part of the TE series of A16 mapping photos. AS16-3021.jpg, it's within the URL of the first instance of Tarkus posting the picture. Or AS16-M-3021.

In early documents, the 'M' tended to be missing from Mapping Camera reference numbers, though it is there on the page I referred him to at the LPI. Wikipedia gives both.

The fact remains that it is not impossible to discover more than anyone ever needs to know about when and where the photo was taken, and whether what is visible is correct, and whether what is lit is correct.

[ka9q]

So yes, upscaling that looks a bit messy

Tarkus should understand that this is a judgment call by the person releasing the photo. When New Horizons was still far away from Pluto, the planet covered only a few pixels in its imager. If they had released the image exactly as received, you'd just see a black frame with a tiny white dot. Upscaling couldn't add any information not already in the picture, but it makes what's there a little easier for most people to see. As New Horizons approached the planet, the size of its images grew and NASA no longer had to upscale as much. The result is a series of pictures in which the planet can appear roughly constant in size, but the resolution keeps improving.

Tarkus should also understand that many probes (including New Horizons) carry several cameras with different focal lengths. A camera with a long focal length lens and a narrow field of view might be used when still far from the planet to get as much resolution as possible. At closest approach, other cameras with shorter lenses and wider fields of view are also used to get additional features, such as multispectral imaging (e.g., to make color pictures). The narrow field camera may still be used to gather tiles for a mosaic with much higher resolution than a single image. So even when pictures are not upscaled, resolutions and apparent pixel sizes can vary a great deal.

they did a remarkable job of predicting surface features particularly the 'heart'

Actually I think it looks like Opus the Penguin in profile.

[Paul]

So yes, upscaling that looks a bit messy

Tarkus should understand that this is a judgment call by the person releasing the photo. When New Horizons was still far away from Pluto, the planet covered only a few pixels in its imager. If they had released the image exactly as received, you'd just see a black frame with a tiny white dot. Upscaling couldn't add any information not already in the picture, but it makes what's there a little easier for most people to see. As New Horizons approached the planet, the size of its images grew and NASA no longer had to upscale as much. The result is a series of pictures in which the planet can appear roughly constant in size, but the resolution keeps improving.

Been trying to find where I got the "3 pixels wide" from but can't find it.  Found this on the JPL website which does have the original source images inset, bigger than 3 pixels clearly, more like 16 pixels across.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/spaceimages/details.php?id=PIA00825

[Zakalwe]

And Jay is right when he says it was a mistake to open as many threads would have been better to exhaust first, sorry.

Thank you for the apology. The "gish-gallop" is a well known tactic of hoaxies. Perhaps you should now revisit those threads and address the questions that you have outstanding (including some of mine).

appreciate and value the knowledge and ability displayed by some users this forum, because they can learn things and correct errors

Hopefully you can also learn to do likewise....

With respect to gif Pluto, it is assumed that these images are obtained by the probe as it approaches the planet

Stop assuming and do some research! Are you beginning to see why people are reacting in the way that they do? You are assuming things and trying to build a case based on those assumptions with people that know about these subjects. Stop assuming and start doing some proper research.

these images are obtained by the probe as it approaches the planet

I've shown you in a previous post that this is not the case. The first image in the sequence was one of Clyde Tombaugh's image of Pluto, captured in 1930!

but as it approaches should be growing in size

Which the images do!

it makes no sense to publish blur and even pixilated, especially if one wants to try something

"If I ran the zoo.." argument.
And again, you are displaying your ignorance of the most basic aspects of planetary imaging. Let's look at this another way- Tarkus, go and find out the distance that each image in the gif were taken from. Then find out the imager specifications (number of pixels, sensor size, well depth, QE efficiency), the optical train specifications (focal length, aperture and focal speed). Then find out the post-processing procedures (Dark frame subtraction? Bias frame calibration? Flat frame calibration?). Once you have all of this, then tell us why the images are wrong.

I would read the answer to my previous contribution on the far side of the moon, adding more doubt ... how far away the moon this picture was taken?

Irrelevant.
You need to know the focal length, aperture, focal speed and film sensitivity. That impacts what is captured, not distance from the object.

I do not know if this image was obtained by the CSM as it orbited the Moon

Again, you are making assumptions. Do your research and then when you DO know, we can talk.

The image mosaic part this photo suggests that the spacecraft moved away from the satellite,

Rubbish. The focal length, aperture and sensor/film size controls what image is captured. You don't know these details, so again you are making an assumption. Ally that with a demonstrably poor knowledge of the most basic aspects of photography and you are dancing on very, very thin ice.

[bknight]

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-131-20163HR.jpg here it is, but there is no data on what time it was taken.

Not remotely close to the pic Tarkus quoted.

But which picture did he in fact cite? AS-16-3021.

No such exists. Either he is ignorant of the nomenclature or intentionally obfuscating the image used and these are not mutually exclusive.

I could seek the image to which he refers, but why? Surely it is up to him to provide actual references, no?

I identified the image for him on page one

As for when exactly it was taken, and the altitude, it is not difficult - I just checked. The AFJ transcript contains the details of when the camera was turned on and off, and the PAO makes regular announcements during the TEI process as to their position relative to the moon.

Tarkus either knows where the information is, in which case he can find it, or he doesn't have a clue, in which case he has no business passing comment.

I didn't remember your post but I knew that you knew when it was taken. and I couldn't find the montage aqt the time. Now bookmarked!

[gillianren]

Guys, I'm used to being ignored by the HBs, but I pointed out in post 292 that Tarkus hadn't been the one to initially post that image.

Not ignoring you here, just not following the thread properly. I have back pain at the moment, so sitting at a computer is not the most comfortable activity and focus on the detail is poor. The muscles between my shoulder blades cramped up 2 weeks ago and I'm in some discomfort. It is the reason that I am not partaking in the thread as much as I normally do.

You have my sympathy!  I have scoliosis, and I'm waiting for my insurance to approve an MRI to see what's going on back there.  My lower back went out in August and hasn't been what passes for normal since then.

[Allan F]

I have a terrible pain in all the diodes down my left hand side.

Mind the size of a planet, and all they want you to do is open the door.

[raven]

I have a terrible pain in all the diodes down my left hand side.

Mind the size of a planet, and all they want you to do is open the door.

Life? Don't ask me about life.