Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 426752 times)

Offline apollo16uvc

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1530 on: November 03, 2020, 12:49:08 PM »
I expect Antifa to commit suicidal acts of terrorism if Trump wins again.

And if Biden wins, they will still. Because Antifa will believe this to be the wild card they need to completely take over cities, rural areas and private land/buildings to enforce (their Idea of) communism.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1531 on: November 03, 2020, 01:27:22 PM »
I expect Antifa to commit suicidal acts of terrorism if Trump wins again.

And if Biden wins, they will still. Because Antifa will believe this to be the wild card they need to completely take over cities, rural areas and private land/buildings to enforce (their Idea of) communism.

 ::)

Antifa/socialism/communism are just boogeymen that Trump uses to scare people into voting for him, just like MS-13, migrant caravans, etc.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1532 on: November 03, 2020, 02:22:18 PM »
I expect Antifa to commit suicidal acts of terrorism if Trump wins again.

And if Biden wins, they will still. Because Antifa will believe this to be the wild card they need to completely take over cities, rural areas and private land/buildings to enforce (their Idea of) communism.

"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Ranb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1533 on: November 03, 2020, 02:50:21 PM »
That's certainly not the move I would have predicted.  The NRA has rarely deferred to any single politician.  The Trump personality cult must indeed be powerful.
I bought an NRA life membership for $300 a few years ago so I could keep my membership at a local gun club that requires NRA membership.  So now I get their magazine.  A recent issue had a glowing opinion piece on Trump's devotion to the 2nd Amendment which was obviously written by a person who thinks the average NRA member is a complete idiot.  The article was more anti-Biden than pro-Trump though.

My opinion on gun forums is that Biden is not capable of grabbing as many guns as Trump did with his bump stock ban unless he does it using the authority of his office and has the CFR amended to classify any semi-auto firearm capable of bump fire (nearly all of them) as a machine gun.  This would make all semi-autos made after May 1986 contraband.  Mine is not a popular opinion.

Offline Ranb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1534 on: November 03, 2020, 02:52:47 PM »
Trump's army of poll watchers is turning out to be more of a platoon.  It looks like Trump and Don Jr's exhortations for the faithful to man the barricades has gone down like a lead Trump-boat  :D
How does one monitor for cheating at the polling place?  Do they just see if anyone votes then gets back in line?  Keep a list of names/photos to identify those who known to be ineligible?  I've only voted by mail since 1984.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1535 on: November 03, 2020, 04:23:53 PM »
Trump's army of poll watchers is turning out to be more of a platoon.  It looks like Trump and Don Jr's exhortations for the faithful to man the barricades has gone down like a lead Trump-boat  :D
How does one monitor for cheating at the polling place?  Do they just see if anyone votes then gets back in line?  Keep a list of names/photos to identify those who known to be ineligible?  I've only voted by mail since 1984.

"That guy looks like an illegal immigrant! He can't vote! Shenanigans!" - a Trump supporter
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
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- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline Allan F

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1536 on: November 03, 2020, 04:43:09 PM »
My opinion on gun forums is that Biden is not capable of grabbing as many guns as Trump did with his bump stock ban unless he does it using the authority of his office and has the CFR amended to classify any semi-auto firearm capable of bump fire (nearly all of them) as a machine gun.  This would make all semi-autos made after May 1986 contraband.  Mine is not a popular opinion.

What are they going to do about Miculek's finger?

Or this?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 04:47:00 PM by Allan F »
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1537 on: November 03, 2020, 07:06:17 PM »
It's truly amazing that there aren't set deadlines for these things, subject, of course, to reasonable situational issues, such as we are currently facing.

There are deadlines.  According to 3 U.S.C. § 5, states are required to complete any dispute-resolution procedures by the sixth day before the Electoral College is to vote.  Not all those procedures are people trying to steal elections.  For example, lots of places require a recount if the margin of victory is too small.  That's something that would have to be completed by the deadline.  But this year it will certainly apply to all the festivities that will likely arise.

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...someone said that my vote is no longer legal, and won't be counted. Um, no. And that doesn't even get into the issues Jay and others raised about polling and drop-off locations, changes to ID requirements, etc.

Yeah, that's really the meat of it.  Yes, it's a bit more chaotic than usual this time around.  But the real problem is the disqualification of a vote that was cast presumptively legally.  It should be extremely difficult to create a situation in which a vote is deemed ineffectual after the fact, and for there to be no remedy such as a new election that restores disenfranchised voters their right to cast a lawful vote.  Yet we see a mad dash to the courts waving a number of legal theories.  We've had challenges before the fact that affect various local governments' readiness to conduct polling.  We have challenges during ongoing voting that might end up discarding ballots cast in good faith.  I can't wait to see the nonsense that starts tomorrow.

Almost all of this is intended not to ensure election integrity, but to suppress the vote.  Republicans presume the easier it is to vote, the more people will vote who oppose their policy and leadership.  None of the measures they've proposed has any evidence to support the claim that it reduces election fraud.  It simply places more barriers in the way.

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...it's the responsibility of the current administration to ensure that the voting process is valid, to protect it from interference and fraud.

It's not quite as straightforward as that.  Since the federal government has no power to regulate a State's method of choosing electors, it has no additional duty to sustain whatever infrastructure a State, by its own discretion, has allowed as part of that process.  The U.S. government has a responsibility to ensure a certain acceptable level of operation of the U.S. Postal Service for many reasons.  But it's not responsible for others' discretionary use of it.  We don't send cash through ordinary mail because it's understood the service is not reliable enough to guarantee delivery.  And some States don't yet consider it reliable enough to use it exclusively for voting, along with the other uncertainties that can arise when voting is not in person.  That others have greater faith can certainly factor into the reasoning in U.S.P.S applies when designing and operating the service.  But ultimately the buck stops at the States in deciding how to handle ballots.

There really isn't much of a Gotcha here.  The federal government can certainly do much to hamper election integrity -- especially by undermining the mail.  Those are criminally actionable offenses, if overt enough.  But it has little responsibility to ensure or guarantee something that is the States' duty to do.  In this case President Trump can "credibly" whine about the States allegedly falling short in stopping fraud and therefore being unfair to his election chances.  Credible only in the sense that it correctly outlines the responsibilities; not credible in the sense that any facts support those claims.

I'll echo Jason's thoughts and add that it's also surprising that there are no national regulations on voting procedures, dates, times, using postal ballots or voter registration.  It seems to be different from state to state (possibly even for counties?) with some very strange decisions being made on these.  Surely these should have been made consistent across the country years ago.

In a word, federalism.

We do have a body called the Federal Election Commission, but they look only at how campaigns are financed.  And they're presently impotent because they currently lack a quorum and cannot therefore sit.

But back to the question, it doesn't just seem like each State is different, it's expressly the case.  The federal government has no power under the Constitution to govern how elections are run in each State.  Originally the States were expected to have much more sovereignty for themselves, and the Union kept its hands off.  The badly-worded passage in Article IV of the Constitution basically says only that some form of "republican" government is required of a State.

We have a National Electrical Code and all sorts of other standardized federal regulations, so why can't we have a national electoral code?  Because the regulation of interstate commerce doesn't cover that.  The only things that are exported from the state following an election are the successful candidates.  That each state is allowed to set its own rules is simply part of the federalist nature of the United States.  You can certainly argue that it's becoming more of a bug than a feature.

There may be a strength here.  State laws vary, of course.  But what's universal is the extremely low rate of voter fraud in all States.  Any argument that challenges a particular practice in one State cannot rely on facial arguments.  In some hypothetical State that has newly expanded voting by mail, it will be hard to argue, "That State's vote must be dismissed because voting by mail is unreliable."  Here in Utah, and in a few other States, we've voted almost exclusively by mail for years, with only a tiny handful of instances of attempted fraud.  It's annoying to have so many different ways of doing it.  But so far, it has been very difficult to exploit any of the systems in ways that Republicans will likely argue compromise the results.

How does one monitor for cheating at the polling place?
"That guy looks like an illegal immigrant! He can't vote! Shenanigans!" - a Trump supporter

Pretty much.  Normally "poll monitoring" means assuring that the poll workers are properly carrying out their duties such as checking IDs, verifying signatures, preserving the integrity of the cast ballots, handling irregularities properly.  What's really happening is that the Trump "poll monitors" would probably be breaking those laws, not enforcing them.  Ordinary American citizens have very little authority to oversee election operations.  In contrast, many state laws require onlookers to keep their distance.  Impersonating an election official or a law enforcement officer is a crime, so it's not very likely that poll mobs will try that.

They might try stopping people before they enter the polling place and ask them for IDs or something.  Of course no one is obligated to provide it, but that won't stop the boldest of the mob.  What's really happening is just subtle intimidation.  I imagine a bunch of overweight, heavily-armed guys wearing camo or "Trump Poll Watcher" T-shirts trying to look as official and imposing as they can, staying just outside the minimum distance, shouting slogans and generally getting all up in people's faces.  That's all you need.  If you have to run the gauntlet, you may decide not to.  Doubly so for minorities, even if they're perfectly legitimate citizens.  Yes, voter intimidation is illegal.  Do you really think there will be consequences this time?
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Offline Jeff Raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1538 on: November 03, 2020, 07:55:15 PM »
There are deadlines.  According to 3 U.S.C. § 5, states are required to complete any dispute-resolution procedures by the sixth day before the Electoral College is to vote.  Not all those procedures are people trying to steal elections.  For example, lots of places require a recount if the margin of victory is too small.  That's something that would have to be completed by the deadline.  But this year it will certainly apply to all the festivities that will likely arise.

I actually was thinking more about deadlines in terms of procedures for polling locations and times, requirements for ID, what criteria trigger a recount, that sort of thing, that would have to be set prior to election day, not so much the actual vote tally.  But I definitely take your point.


It's not quite as straightforward as that.  Since the federal government has no power to regulate a State's method of choosing electors, it has no additional duty to sustain whatever infrastructure a State, by its own discretion, has allowed as part of that process.  The U.S. government has a responsibility to ensure a certain acceptable level of operation of the U.S. Postal Service for many reasons.  But it's not responsible for others' discretionary use of it.  We don't send cash through ordinary mail because it's understood the service is not reliable enough to guarantee delivery.  And some States don't yet consider it reliable enough to use it exclusively for voting, along with the other uncertainties that can arise when voting is not in person.  That others have greater faith can certainly factor into the reasoning in U.S.P.S applies when designing and operating the service.  But ultimately the buck stops at the States in deciding how to handle ballots.

There really isn't much of a Gotcha here.  The federal government can certainly do much to hamper election integrity -- especially by undermining the mail.  Those are criminally actionable offenses, if overt enough.  But it has little responsibility to ensure or guarantee something that is the States' duty to do.  In this case President Trump can "credibly" whine about the States allegedly falling short in stopping fraud and therefore being unfair to his election chances.  Credible only in the sense that it correctly outlines the responsibilities; not credible in the sense that any facts support those claims.

That makes sense. I know that the States are responsible for enforcing their own election laws, which vary state to state, but was thinking that, due to the use of the USPS, that there would also be some responsibility at the federal level to ensure that its use was valid. But, reading what you wrote, I understand that, as you said, the federal level can mess things up through its actions or inaction, but doesn't have the duty to secure the vote's integrity. Of course, they could certainly encourage it (rather than whine and threaten), but I can understand that going beyond that (e.g. offering funding that is state-specific or advisors) could easily be corrupted. I was also - I have no idea why - forgetting that the vote isn't for the person, it's for the electors that then elect the person, and therefore that's at the state level.

Appreciate, as always, your perspective and knowledge, Jay. 

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1539 on: November 03, 2020, 11:18:46 PM »
I actually was thinking more about deadlines in terms of procedures for polling locations and times, requirements for ID, what criteria trigger a recount, that sort of thing, that would have to be set prior to election day...

Oh, I see.  Is there a deadline for getting everything ready for an orderly election?  No, not really.  Now most of that is already statutory or regulatory.  So it's not like we devolve into chaos every two years.  This year is special because there is a sudden new need for innovative polling procedures, and because the stakes for so many elections are so very high.  It's a perfect storm for contention.

As with all things federal, it's going to vary from state to state.  Our State has a comparatively small amount of election law, but conveys substantial authority in that respect to the Lt. Governor's office.  Thus it becomes regulatory -- administrative law rather than statutory law.  In U.K. terms (for our friends overseas) it's the difference between primary legislation and secondary legislation.  Most electoral law in most U.S. States is secondary legislation.  Our Lt. Governor, subject to the rules on administrative law, can simply decree that polling stations can remain open longer.  Recount policy here is statutory, so there's very little that has to be understood prior to Election Day.

Okay, but deadlines.  Let's say our Lt. Governor (in other States, the Secretary of State) decided a month ago that polls should stay open until 9 pm, whereas previously the polls closed at 8 pm according to regulations previously issued by the office.  There is usually an artificial limit to the consideration of changes to executive regulation.  But then administrative law can also be challenged in court, and there is no natural or artificial time limit to the resolution of such claims.  Obviously by 9 pm on election night the question becomes moot, but you're still open to Due Process and Equal Protection claims after the fact.  The justiciability of such claims is suspect in this particular example because you would need to know which ballots had been cast between 8 pm and 9 pm in order to determine which ballots had been lawfully cast should subsequent authority rule that the polling-hours extension was improper.

Would all this be solved by a national statutory rule on polling hours?  Yes.

Consider in contrast what's happening, as I write this, in Nevada.  Technical issues have delayed voting.  How to deal with these unforeseen issues?  A state judge has ruled that affected polling locations must remain open longer tonight in order to compensate for the effect.  This is the right answer; it errs on the side of recording votes that, but for the State's failure, would have been lawfully cast prior to poll closure.  But the losing party could easily challenge that on Fourteenth Amendment grounds.  Let's say Jose, who lives in Clark County, didn't get off work until 7 pm.  Since the polls in that county are open longer, he can vote.  Shirley, who lives in Winnemucca, also gets off work at 7 pm.  But those polls closed on time.  She wasn't able to vote.  Jose wasn't delayed by technical failure, merely the circumstances of his life.  Shirley's circumstances are similar, but the law hasn't treated her equally to Jose.

These things are happening now, in real time.  It's not possible to resolve emergent conditions according to a pre-election deadline.  And it's not advisable to preclude such challenges simply because some arbitrary deadline has passed.  Clark County, Nevada, voters who reasonably presented themselves at the polls in plenty of time to vote, deserve to have their votes counted.

The process of changing electoral law in the several States is lengthy.  Most state legislatures sit in the Spring and then adjourn for the rest of the year.  In March the effects of the pandemic on the election were uncertain.  Consequently the administrative and regulatory folk have been persuaded to push the limits of their authority under existing statute to provide safe access to voting.  Their intentions are honorable.  But it opens them up to challenges in the name of electoral integrity.  Pushing the boundaries of acceptable ballot-handling in the name of ensuring everyone can vote can be argued to push the boundaries in favor of relaxing security.

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That makes sense. I know that the States are responsible for enforcing their own election laws, which vary state to state, but was thinking that, due to the use of the USPS, that there would also be some responsibility at the federal level to ensure that its use was valid.

Not in this way.  Certainly 18 U.S.C. § 1341 criminalizes mail fraud and empowers the postal service to investigate and prosecute it.  But voter fraud doesn't fit the elements of mail fraud, nor any of the other illegal activities the U.S. Postal Service has the duty to prevent.  Having the duty to detect and prevent certain specific unlawful uses of your service is different than being responsible for providing a level of service which, if not met, defeats some specific desired purpose.  There's some gray area here.  But the dynamics of general U.S. postal service are formulated according to a broad spectrum of needs and abilities.  That doesn't necessarily change because some State has decided those dynamics suit its election laws.

The postal question is really a red herring.  The perceived issues of voting by mail have little to do with mail delivery.  Did the ballot for John Doe get mailed to the address where John Doe actually lives?  That's not a postal service problem.  Did a ballot get mailed to someone who isn't eligible to vote?  Again, not a mail problem.  Was the ballot filled out and submitted by a different person than the intended recipient?  Sure, stealing ballots from mailboxes would possibly be a postal service concern.  So would someone else in the household marking the ballot.  All of these are authentication problems that mostly concern the county clerks and precinct captains.

The problems we can lay at the feet of a postal service include whether the ballots arrive on time at the addresses of voters, and whether the returned ballots arrive on time at the address of the election official.  Ordinarily it's no different than whether the Christmas letter arrived on time or whether your tax return was postmarked in a timely fashion.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1540 on: November 04, 2020, 12:34:49 AM »
It shouldn't be close.  I literally do not understand people who can look at [gestures vaguely] and say, "Yes, this is how I want my country to look."  Or all those people who somehow believe the current administration has done the best they can with the pandemic, which is one of the most demonstrably untrue things ever.

At least our governor's getting a third term and our state's comprehensive age-appropriate sex ed remains in place?
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Offline Ranb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1541 on: November 04, 2020, 01:34:10 AM »
What are they going to do about Miculek's finger?
They'll (the Trump supporters) will say "no one needs to shoot like that", "no need for that kind of shooting for hunters" or "what do you want to shoot like that for?".  It is weird.  I only used to hear that from my "less gun enthusiastic" friends.  :)

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1542 on: November 04, 2020, 02:59:50 AM »
Looks like Trump will win again. Well done America, you can complete your slide into fascism.
<slow handclaps>
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1543 on: November 04, 2020, 09:18:29 AM »
Looks like Trump will win again. Well done America, you can complete your slide into fascism.
<slow handclaps>

I'm not giving up hope that Biden will end up winning. But regardless, it is shameful that it is this close and that so many people continue to support Donald Trump. I can forgive people for falling for the con in 2016 and voting for Trump because they didn't know he was a racist scumbag. There is no excuse now.

There should be an investigation into how the USPS handled their role. A judge ordered them to sweep all mail sorting facilities for over 300,000 outstanding ballots and Postmaster General Lois DeJoy refused to do so. That is election interference, and it almost certainly benefitted Trump.

Postal Service misses court-ordered deadline for unsent mail ballots
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1544 on: November 04, 2020, 09:23:04 AM »
Looks like Trump will win again. Well done America, you can complete your slide into fascism.
<slow handclaps>

I'm not giving up hope that Biden will end up winning. But regardless, it is shameful that it is this close and that so many people continue to support Donald Trump. I can forgive people for falling for the con in 2016 and voting for Trump because they didn't know he was a racist scumbag. There is no excuse now.

There should be an investigation into how the USPS handled their role. A judge ordered them to sweep all mail sorting facilities for over 300,000 outstanding ballots and Postmaster General Lois DeJoy refused to do so. That is election interference, and it almost certainly benefitted Trump.

Postal Service misses court-ordered deadline for unsent mail ballots

Like I said, these are banana republic style tactics.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov