ApolloHoax.net
Apollo Discussions => The Hoax Theory => Topic started by: AstroBrant on March 27, 2016, 08:44:27 PM
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As most of you know, there has been much speculation about what causes the flag to swing a little bit in the video from Apollo 15, when Dave walks between the rover camera and the flag. Some have suggested that he touched it, but I have been skeptical of that.
Recently, someone pointed out to me another place where a flag does this. Watch the clip of the Apollo 16 jump salute. After Charlie's salute, just as he is turning around, it can be seen swinging like in the Apollo 15 clip. I watched Mark Grey's high quality video, which eliminates some of the glitchy video movement of objects.
No one was walking past the flag at that point, so no previously proposed explanations would apply: touching it, static electricity, or kicked dust. Of course, the hoax claim of an air wake from a passing astronaut couldn't apply, either.
Of all the hoax claims, this is the only one which seems to be an enigma. Obviously there is an explanation, but darned if I can guess what it is. There is always the possibility that some video artifact caused this, but I've studied this for over a couple of hours and I see nothing else seeming to move that way.
I wonder if this may be a continuation of that charged regolith "fountain," which at this time of lunar day may be so diffuse as to be undetectable. Perhaps one regolith particle could cause this much movement. It would require extremely little force. Disturbing the soil may trigger a greater flux of discharged particles.
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Maybe he shook the ground by jumping?
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Maybe he shook the ground by jumping?
It started too long after the jump. This swinging began after Charlie's salute.
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Is it definitely real movement? The camera is seeing widely varying light levels from the astronaut's suit as he turns - could the effect simply be a 'blooming' effect, where the scan lines are 'pushed' very slightly to the right by overexposure at left? If it was movement, then it seems odd that it seems to stop with no repeat cycles - in air that would seem a little odd, but in a vacuum it should take longer for the fabric's damping to kick in..
I admit I only took a short look, so it's just a thought..
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I see the motion, and note that it seems to start as Charlie turns to face the camera. As usual, you can see that the lunar soil - which is fine enough to leave crisp, clear boot-prints - does not billow at all, but does go a long way when kicked by minor foot motions. This proves that this video was made in vacuum under low gravity, i.e. the lunar surface.
The flag's motion is very small. Perhaps the regolith, kicked-up when Charlie turned, hit the flagpole and caused the vibration?
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I've always felt that this is a result of sympathetic vibrations up the flagpole. Has anyone ever tried to replicate that effect?
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Its a video artefact IMO. It looks like the flag shortens and then lengthens and then shortens again. To me this appear some kind of timebase distortion. Remember this will have originally been an analog video signal converted to digital, and it requires timebase correction during the conversion. There are very often errors when the conversion is made.
Try the following
1. Cue up the video from the point where Astrobrant had it cued to and then pause the video
2. Set the video to fullscreen
3. Now have a look to the right of the more distant astronaut and about level with his boots, you should see three dark spots on the lunar surface (the astronaut appears to be about half way between these spots and the bottom of the flagpole). Make a mental note of where these three spots are.
4. Start the video and as soon as you see the flag start to move, quickly look down at those three spots...you will see them moving too, left and right.
I am sure this is a video artefact caused by some sort of timebase distortion on the video signal. I see a similar things when watching an NTSC DVD on a PAL TV... small objects in the background which should be stationary often appear to sway left and right.
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Here's a few frames showing the flag apparently moving:
(http://i64.tinypic.com/svh268.jpg)
it does seem like the apparent movement is from changes in colour on screen!
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The only apparent movement I see is way after the salute, when John is approaching the flag, with "flashes" of white off of John's suit.
IMO, it is just an artifact of the camera, with its spinning wheel, catching up and no movement of the flag.
Just my two cents.
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As most of you know, there has been much speculation about what causes the flag to swing a little bit in the video from Apollo 15, when Dave walks between the rover camera and the flag. Some have suggested that he touched it, but I have been skeptical of that.
I am not skeptical of that explanation, the wide angle lens would necessarily make Dave much closer to the camera than the flag. So much difference that possible hand/arm contact was definitely a possibility, barring that the closeness may have caused a static electric interference. Since the movement, regardless of the initiator continued long after Dave has passed out of focal range of the camera proving that the movement could have only exist in a near zero atmosphere.
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Here's a few frames showing the flag apparently moving:
(http://i64.tinypic.com/svh268.jpg)
it does seem like the apparent movement is from changes in colour on screen!
And look at the bottom part of the flag pole on your gif; it appears to move left-right
IMO, this confirms its a video artefact
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I'm musing about other effects that could make a flag move.
We know that the PLSS uses sublimation of water ice into the vacuum to cool the astronauts.
Could this, in theory, produce enough of a thin gas escaping at high velocity, that moves the
flag when it impinges on the relatively large and light fabric? E.g. when the astronaut turns
just the right way? I imagine the PLSS similar to a lawn sprinkler spraying gas...
Could a micrometeorite cause noticeable flag movement?
I suspect the flux (and thus probability) is quite low, but we need only one event :-)
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it does seem like the apparent movement is from changes in colour on screen!
And look at the bottom part of the flag pole on your gif; it appears to move left-right
IMO, this confirms its a video artefact
What? You mean flag poles don't move in winds? Surely you jest. ::)
EDIT: Removed double ending quote.
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That looks undoubtedly like a video artefact to me. Such wavering of the image can also be on the Apollo 11 tv feed once the astros are back in the LM. The hoaxers will no doubt cry "foul" simply because they never had experience with such problems on video before. Given one of them thinks a kinescope is actually 2" tape I hold absolutely no hope at all for them.
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The hoaxers will no doubt cry "foul" simply because they never had experience with such problems on video before. Given one of them thinks a kinescope is actually 2" tape I hold absolutely no hope at all for them.
Bwwhahahah!
Is he Australian?
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:'( Sniffs sadly - I'm an Orstralian, and I yet I wuz first here to suggest that this isn't flag movement. Don't label all of us... (j/k)
Actually, bein' down under often gives us an advantage to get first bite on questions, due to the time zones and us bein' so far ahead....
:D
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:'( Sniffs sadly - I'm an Orstralian, and I yet I wuz first here to suggest that this isn't flag movement. Don't label all of us... (j/k)
Actually, bein' down under often gives us an advantage to get first bite on questions, due to the time zones and us bein' so far ahead....
:D
Yes one of the Aussies was first to identify an errant Coke bottle on a grainy video. ::)
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:'( Sniffs sadly - I'm an Orstralian, and I yet I wuz first here to suggest that this isn't flag movement. Don't label all of us... (j/k)
Actually, bein' down under often gives us an advantage to get first bite on questions, due to the time zones and us bein' so far ahead....
:D
Australian you say...
http://www.ticketmaster.com.au/Gene-Cernan-tickets/artist/2221246?tm_link=artist_artistvenue_module
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To add more proof positive to the video artifact argument, Erock (as he is known over at International Skeptics) sent me this:
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To add more proof positive to the video artifact argument, Erock (as he is known over at International Skeptics) sent me this:
Oh the Blunder has picked up on the "movement" of the flag during A16? He probably made a ten minute video dissecting every second, "proving" that the flag was filmed on the Earth.
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What a great bunch of answers! I was confident that some of the regular ApolloHoax contributors would figure this out, and you did exactly that. You didn't let me down. It's clear that this is a video artifact. I didn't see any of the other "motions" before, but I see them now. In the blink comparison, a close examination reveals that the flag isn't moving, but the brightness of pixels is. Look at the one little extension on the far bottom left corner of the flag. It doesn't move at all.
Thanks to all of you for your fine thoughts, the time and work you put in, and the conclusive photo-proof.
Clear skies,
Brant
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I do not really have anything to add, but I would like to commend AstroBrant on his intellectual honesty for bringing this to our attention. I mean, I don't frequent their haunts, but can you imagine, say, Jarrah starting a thread saying, "Say, I found what looks like really good evidence Apollo is real, can you guys help me figure how it was faked?"
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I do not really have anything to add, but I would like to commend AstroBrant on his intellectual honesty for bringing this to our attention.
This is what genuine critical thinkers do. They don't hide when the evidence might be against them. They seek answers by examining the evidence, unlike conspiracy theorists who predetermine the answer they want, then shoehorn and manipulate the evidence to fit, and handwave away any that won't .
Brant has discovered (rediscovered?) that this forum seems to attract people with REAL expertise that they can bring to the table; aerospace engineering, physics, chemistry, electronics, radio and television communications, photography, engineering, flight hardware and aircraft engineering and operations (apologies if I have left anyone out. And this is the big thing that CT forums don't have. They attack, and dismiss, a ridicule people with real knowledge and expertise in favour of The Stupidati, the Jarrahs Whites, and the Alex Joneses of this world.
... can you imagine, say, Jarrah starting a thread saying, "Say, I found what looks like really good evidence Apollo is real, can you guys help me figure how it was faked?"
Ahem.... NO!
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Australian you say...
http://www.ticketmaster.com.au/Gene-Cernan-tickets/artist/2221246?tm_link=artist_artistvenue_module
Wish I could but he's not coming to Qld, and as I'm rapidly approaching retirement, I'm getting a bit miserly... If Neil had still been alive and visiting, maybe....
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Australian you say...
http://www.ticketmaster.com.au/Gene-Cernan-tickets/artist/2221246?tm_link=artist_artistvenue_module
Wish I could but he's not coming to Qld, and as I'm rapidly approaching retirement, I'm getting a bit miserly... If Neil had still been alive and visiting, maybe....
I was thinking about a trip to Melbourne to visit family in June.
AU$75 a ticket makes me think about going a few days earlier.
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Australian you say...
http://www.ticketmaster.com.au/Gene-Cernan-tickets/artist/2221246?tm_link=artist_artistvenue_module
Wish I could but he's not coming to Qld, and as I'm rapidly approaching retirement, I'm getting a bit miserly... If Neil had still been alive and visiting, maybe....
I was thinking about a trip to Melbourne to visit family in June.
AU$75 a ticket makes me think about going a few days earlier.
I'm jealous!. :'(
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Australian you say...
http://www.ticketmaster.com.au/Gene-Cernan-tickets/artist/2221246?tm_link=artist_artistvenue_module
Wish I could but he's not coming to Qld, and as I'm rapidly approaching retirement, I'm getting a bit miserly... If Neil had still been alive and visiting, maybe....
I was thinking about a trip to Melbourne to visit family in June.
AU$75 a ticket makes me think about going a few days earlier.
Well, I booked a ticket to the Canberra show. Thanks for the link, OBM.
And when I mentioned the Meet and Greet option to my wife, she ordered me to buy it, or she'd do it for me. *
So, does anyone have any questions they'd like me to ask?
= = = =
* I could have gone to the Neil Armstrong interview in Sydney a few years ago, but the transport would either have been expensive or incredibly inconvenient. I'm still a bit nervous about spending this much money on an event like this, but at least the money is going towards perks at the event, rather than on just getting there.
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Well, I booked a ticket to the Canberra show. Thanks for the link, OBM.
And when I mentioned the Meet and Greet option to my wife, she ordered me to buy it, or she'd do it for me. *
So, does anyone have any questions they'd like me to ask?
= = = =
* I could have gone to the Neil Armstrong interview in Sydney a few years ago, but the transport would either have been expensive or incredibly inconvenient. I'm still a bit nervous about spending this much money on an event like this, but at least the money is going towards perks at the event, rather than on just getting there.
Fantastic :D
Screw the money, this is Gene Cernan!! (and that M&G package looks pretty cool!).
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So, does anyone have any questions they'd like me to ask?
YES - noise levels of the descent and ascent stages in the LM.
EDIT: Expect the descent stage to be inaudible, and the ascent engine barely audible.
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Australian you say...
http://www.ticketmaster.com.au/Gene-Cernan-tickets/artist/2221246?tm_link=artist_artistvenue_module
Wish I could but he's not coming to Qld, and as I'm rapidly approaching retirement, I'm getting a bit miserly... If Neil had still been alive and visiting, maybe....
I was thinking about a trip to Melbourne to visit family in June.
AU$75 a ticket makes me think about going a few days earlier.
Well, I booked a ticket to the Canberra show. Thanks for the link, OBM.
And when I mentioned the Meet and Greet option to my wife, she ordered me to buy it, or she'd do it for me. *
So, does anyone have any questions they'd like me to ask?
= = = =
* I could have gone to the Neil Armstrong interview in Sydney a few years ago, but the transport would either have been expensive or incredibly inconvenient. I'm still a bit nervous about spending this much money on an event like this, but at least the money is going towards perks at the event, rather than on just getting there.
What was the odor of the Moon dust, I've heard gun powder, but was wondering his thoughts.
Have fun and enjoy the show, post some images afterwards, I'm still jealous.
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YES - noise levels of the descent and ascent stages in the LM.
EDIT: Expect the descent stage to be inaudible, and the ascent engine barely audible.
I expect them to be the opposite of that. The descent engine is 3 times more powerful than the ascent engine and noise conduction will be more amplified by the increase in size of the craft.
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YES - noise levels of the descent and ascent stages in the LM.
EDIT: Expect the descent stage to be inaudible, and the ascent engine barely audible.
I expect them to be the opposite of that. The descent engine is 3 times more powerful than the ascent engine and noise conduction will be more amplified by the increase in size of the craft.
But the descent engine was further removed from the cabin - the ascent engine was RIGHT THERE - they were using it as a stool.
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They were wearing their inner helmets during ascent and descent, so that would cut down the noise. On the other hand, I bet they felt it.
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I'm not really sure. I don't think there was any vibration - of course there was acceleration.