Author Topic: Apollo 13  (Read 167663 times)

Offline sts60

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #135 on: October 15, 2013, 02:00:50 PM »
Hi, allancw.  A belated welcome to the board.  I am a space systems engineer who has worked with a number of Apollo engineers, and have a certain amount of interest and familiarity with "hoax" claims.
 
Everyone seems to agree that the Van Allen Belts were potentially dangerous to the astronauts. Therefore, all the Apollo missions must have taken this into account, i.e., the launches timed and the flight trajectories carefully plotted so the astronauts would not be 'dosed.'

I'll assume this is a given, from the above posts.

Mostly correct.  The trajectory design and timing were carefully managed to minimize the exposure to geomagnetically trapped particles.  The question was not whether the crews would get a dose, but how much of a dose.  The doses were measured and found to be quite acceptable - see Biomedical Results of Apollo.

Therefore there surely are CONTEMPORANEOUS reports/accounts/papers/studies/documents proving this, or at least MENTIONING IT. Just to be sure you understand: when I say 'contemporaneous' I mean dated from the time of the missions, not some Youtube video or verbal claim from the 21st century.
There are.  Some have been provided to you already.  Below are excerpted some more examples.

I am saying, actually guaranteeing, that none of you can come up with the above, and for this reason: The Apollo missions were hoaxes.

So that's my 'proof': You cannot produce the stated evidence, which you surely could produce if the missions were done with the Van Allen Belt taken as a serious risk factor...

Your "proof" is demonstrably incorrect.  You guaranteed such materials did not exist.  What are the terms of your guarantee?
 
NASA TN-D-7080, Apollo Experience Report: Protection Against Radiation
Quote
The problem of protection against the natural radiations of the Van Allen belts was recognized before the advent of manned space flight. The simplified solution is to remain under the belts (below an altitude of approximately 300 nautical miles) when in earth orbit and to traverse the belts rapidly on the way to outer space. In reality, the problem is somewhat more complex...

Raymes, Frederick (North American Aviation, Inc.).  "Apollo Spacecraft Nuclear Radiation Protection Status Report", NASA SP-71, Second Symposium on Protection Against Radiation in Space
, 1964.
 
Quote
If one considers only the lunar mission during which the spacecraft slices through the more intense regions of the trapped radiation belts for a duration in the order of 20 minutes, the belts present no serious problem t,o the astronauts as long &s they are residing in t’he CSM.  Calculations have been performed for various mission modes which require CSM-LEM docking during transition through the trapped radiation belts. It was found that the astronauts could not be permitted to enter the LEM adapter, nor the LEM, for 10 to 20 minutes after injection into the trsnslunar phase.  Mission operations & procedures have been worked out which will not require the astronauts to leave the CSM for at least that time period after injection into the transslunar trajectory.

Schaefer, Herman J. (Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory), "Apollo Mission Experience", NASA TM-X-2440, Proceedings of the National Symposium on Natural and Manmade Radiation in Space, 1971.
 
Quote
On standard near-Earth orbital missions such os the prepamtory missions Apollo VII ond IX, tmpped protons are encountered in repeated passes through the South Atlantic Anomaly. On lunar missions, they are encountered in two complete traversals of the mdiotion belt on tmnslunar and trans-Earth injection. Since the angle of inclimtion of the plow of the geomagnetic equator to the plone of the coplamr orbits of the Moon ond the vehicle around the Earth varies continuously on o doily and monthly cycle, the geomagnetic tmjectory through the radiation belt varies from crossing to crossing. Sometimes the trajectory traverses the inner belt more periphemlly, rometimes more centrally.

Bellcom, Inc. The Radiation Environment of Apollo, Interim Report, 1963.  Section 3.2, Computer Programs.
 
Quote
A computer program has been compiled at Bellcomm tio compute the instantaneous and accumulated particle flux intercepted by a spacecraft in orbit or on a given lunar trajectory.  A detailed mathematical description is given in Appendix B.  The program uses the following initial six parameters to specify an orbit: atlitude, longitude, latitude, azimuth, elevation, and velocity magnitude at burnout and it computes the orbi8t as a functino of in-plane angle or true anomaly.  A subroutine then converts geographical coordintates into B,L coordinates.  A second subroutine interrogates the memory and reads out the particle (proton and/or electron) fluxesd out of ~1200 B,L boxes and the instantaneous and accumulated fluxes read out.

Roberts, W.T. (Marshall Space Flight Center). NASA TM-X-54700, Space Radiations: A Compilation and Discussion, 1964.
 
Quote
Methods are now under development to determine the optimum trajectories (in terms of dose rates) to be used for various mission profiles.  If this method proves successful, the mission may be made more complicated due to the specificatino of a path to be followed through the Van Allen zones.

By the way, Allan, regarding your "broken link" comment:  I have PDFs of these and will be happy to provide them to you.  The gov't, and thus the NASA Technical Reports Server, may be shut down, but not my hard drive.

Offline dwight

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #136 on: October 15, 2013, 02:12:33 PM »
Similarly I have every Apollo TV related NTRS document in pdf, along with every JSC History and Archive document pertaining to the same including Skylab, ASTP, and the shuttle.
"Honeysuckle TV on line!"

Offline Ranb

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #137 on: October 15, 2013, 02:46:29 PM »
Maybe I missed it but did allancw ever give any indication that he knows what the radiation exposure rates are in the VAB's?  I work as a physical science technician at a shipyard and it is my job to keep workers informed of radiation levels.  It would be very foolish of me to make any informed decisions on the risk of radiation exposure without knowing the radiation levels. 

So allancw, do you have any idea what the radiation levels were (or are) outside of low Earth orbit?  International units would be fine.  If you do, then you will be the very first hoax believer to indicate so to my knowledge.

Ranb

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #138 on: October 15, 2013, 03:00:37 PM »
OK, so far no contemporaneous accounts of how the belts were to be avoided (just to remind you all of my request).

You have been shown how the preplanned, and flown, trajectories avoided the radiation belts.  By all reasonable standards your request has been met.

There is no need for NASA to specifically say that they're not flying through the heart of the VARB when they publish beforehand the trajectories they're taking.  If I tell you I'm driving from Memphis to Los Angeles via Interstate 40, there is no need for me to announce I won't be driving through Dallas.  You can check my route on a road map and see that I40 doesn't go through Dallas.  Ditto for Apollo.  We can check the trajectories and see that the most dense parts of the VARB were avoided.  It is absurd and unreasonable to believe such trajectories were not by design.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 03:03:22 PM by Bob B. »

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #139 on: October 15, 2013, 03:03:38 PM »


A summary diagram, compiled from contemporary data in various documents. Can I link to it? No, I found the data in things called books that I borrowed from my local library.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #140 on: October 15, 2013, 03:14:55 PM »
And incidentally, do you still mainitain the photo is lit from the left, and what about the whole seeing stars issue? What have you to say on that now?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #141 on: October 15, 2013, 03:25:30 PM »

NASA TN-D-7080, Apollo Experience Report: Protection Against Radiation
Quote
The problem of protection against the natural radiations of the Van Allen belts was recognized before the advent of manned space flight. The simplified solution is to remain under the belts (below an altitude of approximately 300 nautical miles) when in earth orbit and to traverse the belts rapidly on the way to outer space. In reality, the problem is somewhat more complex...

Raymes, Frederick (North American Aviation, Inc.).  "Apollo Spacecraft Nuclear Radiation Protection Status Report", NASA SP-71, Second Symposium on Protection Against Radiation in Space
, 1964.
 
Quote
If one considers only the lunar mission during which the spacecraft slices through the more intense regions of the trapped radiation belts for a duration in the order of 20 minutes, the belts present no serious problem t,o the astronauts as long &s they are residing in t’he CSM.  Calculations have been performed for various mission modes which require CSM-LEM docking during transition through the trapped radiation belts. It was found that the astronauts could not be permitted to enter the LEM adapter, nor the LEM, for 10 to 20 minutes after injection into the trsnslunar phase.  Mission operations & procedures have been worked out which will not require the astronauts to leave the CSM for at least that time period after injection into the transslunar trajectory.

Schaefer, Herman J. (Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory), "Apollo Mission Experience", NASA TM-X-2440, Proceedings of the National Symposium on Natural and Manmade Radiation in Space, 1971.
 
Quote
On standard near-Earth orbital missions such os the prepamtory missions Apollo VII ond IX, tmpped protons are encountered in repeated passes through the South Atlantic Anomaly. On lunar missions, they are encountered in two complete traversals of the mdiotion belt on tmnslunar and trans-Earth injection. Since the angle of inclimtion of the plow of the geomagnetic equator to the plone of the coplamr orbits of the Moon ond the vehicle around the Earth varies continuously on o doily and monthly cycle, the geomagnetic tmjectory through the radiation belt varies from crossing to crossing. Sometimes the trajectory traverses the inner belt more periphemlly, rometimes more centrally.

Bellcom, Inc. The Radiation Environment of Apollo, Interim Report, 1963.  Section 3.2, Computer Programs.
 
Quote
A computer program has been compiled at Bellcomm tio compute the instantaneous and accumulated particle flux intercepted by a spacecraft in orbit or on a given lunar trajectory.  A detailed mathematical description is given in Appendix B.  The program uses the following initial six parameters to specify an orbit: atlitude, longitude, latitude, azimuth, elevation, and velocity magnitude at burnout and it computes the orbi8t as a functino of in-plane angle or true anomaly.  A subroutine then converts geographical coordintates into B,L coordinates.  A second subroutine interrogates the memory and reads out the particle (proton and/or electron) fluxesd out of ~1200 B,L boxes and the instantaneous and accumulated fluxes read out.

Roberts, W.T. (Marshall Space Flight Center). NASA TM-X-54700, Space Radiations: A Compilation and Discussion, 1964.
 
Quote
Methods are now under development to determine the optimum trajectories (in terms of dose rates) to be used for various mission profiles.  If this method proves successful, the mission may be made more complicated due to the specificatino of a path to be followed through the Van Allen zones.

To paraphrase the title of Oolon Colluphid's fourth book....."Well, That About Wraps it up for no Contemporaneous Documents"
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #142 on: October 15, 2013, 03:27:53 PM »
To paraphrase the title of Oolon Colluphid's fourth book....."Well, That About Wraps it up for no Contemporaneous Documents"

 ;D ;D ;D ;)
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline beedarko

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #143 on: October 15, 2013, 03:59:33 PM »
so far no contemporaneous accounts of how the belts were to be avoided (just to remind you all of my request). By the way, the reason I guaranteed that you wouldn't find anything was because I spent a couple hours looking

Well, you've certainly allayed any concerns I had about your thoroughness.


Offline Trebor

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #144 on: October 15, 2013, 04:05:37 PM »
...
By the way, Allan, regarding your "broken link" comment:  I have PDFs of these and will be happy to provide them to you.  The gov't, and thus the NASA Technical Reports Server, may be shut down, but not my hard drive.

I would be interested in those...

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #145 on: October 15, 2013, 04:13:50 PM »
OK, so far no contemporaneous accounts of how the belts were to be avoided (just to remind you all of my request). By the way, the reason I guaranteed that you wouldn't find anything was because I spent a couple hours looking

So, I wait. You all have expended many man-hours insulting me. Why not just find the document/report/whatever I ask for and be done with it? You have already stated that the mission trajectories were planned with the belts in mind. Surely you got this information somewhere...


So Mr. Weisbecker, you have now been furnished with the names and details of the documents that you "guaranteed" couldn't be found. You've even had quotations extracted from those documents in case your word-searching skills let you down.

I am saying, actually guaranteeing, that none of you can come up with the above, and for this reason: The Apollo missions were hoaxes.
Given that you have now got the information that you requested, it seems that a retraction of the above statement is required. I am personally happy to give you a little time to verify the documents (say a day), just so you don't have to accept anything on face value. Will you then retract the assertion that the missions were hoaxes?
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline sts60

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #146 on: October 15, 2013, 04:30:33 PM »
By the way, it's too late to edit my earlier post now, but the typos in the quotes above are due to OCR of scanned documents.  If I expand the citation list, I'll clean it up.

ETA: The other problems are from editing on a smartphone
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 06:10:17 PM by sts60 »

Offline beedarko

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #147 on: October 15, 2013, 04:40:05 PM »
He appears to be cut from the same cloth as the late Wayne Green -- which is to say he was so very enamored with his own value as a writer and commentator that he thought no one should fault him for getting the facts woefully and arrogantly wrong.

Maybe he's a graduate of the Ralph Rene School of Investigative Journalism.


Offline Andromeda

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #148 on: October 15, 2013, 05:14:26 PM »
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline allancw

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #149 on: October 15, 2013, 06:37:24 PM »
This is my favorite:

'You're presuming that there exists somewhere in the annals of NASA some brief document written in the 1960s that states succinctly in as many words the same summary answer you've been given today to your question by knowledgeable professionals.  And you'll accept no substitute. [RIGHT! SOME EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR BS!] I'll let the world marvel at how an "investigative reporter" -- or indeed any sort of an historian -- would think that way.

Where did I get this information?  From the three feet of shelf space I devote to the secondary sources of Apollo historical material.  From the uncounted pages of digital primary material I've read over the past 15 years of answering conspiracy theorists, as well as a likely equal amount in the decades of my professional and educational career in space science preceding that.  From my hard-won knowledge of orbital mechanics and a working understanding of the AP-8 and AE-8 models that I have to use in my profession.  From the published orbital geometries (several contemporaneous sources) of the Apollo missions.  From my correspondence with Dr. Van Allen.' [PROVE IT! WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT KIND OF BALD ASSERTION  FROM ME?]

(Yeah, yeah I don't know how to isolate your quotes. BFD)

This guy will spend how ever many hours writing insults but can't come up with a mention of how they avoided the Belts, etc etc. Tiresome.

And more petard hoisting from the paper from 1969, which, brilliantly, suggests that the boys 'transit the belts rapidly' as a solution. Well, duhhh:

'When you find yourself in a hail of bullets: run!!!!'

Still not a word about a 'Van Allen launch window.' (Yes, my phraseology.)

I'll check back in one more time but you guys are not doing well.