Author Topic: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?  (Read 420805 times)

Offline Peter B

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #120 on: January 25, 2013, 05:16:12 AM »
The Luna missions returned 32.6 grams.
Um, 326 grams.

Still less than one-thousandth of what the six Apollo missions brought back...
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #121 on: January 25, 2013, 05:36:57 AM »
The Luna missions returned 32.6 grams.
Um, 326 grams.

Still less than one-thousandth of what the six Apollo missions brought back...

My apologies..well spotted. I blame my dyslexic fingers (a terrible affliction in a man of my years... ;D)

The point still stands. What the Russians returned is three orders of magnitude less than Apollo returned, yet this particular HB believes that he can hand-wave the difference away.
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #122 on: January 25, 2013, 07:04:39 AM »
Look people, NASA goes to the president and says, if we try to go to the moon, the chances of success are 50/50.  If we fake it, the chances of success are 100% and nobody will ever suspect us.  What do you want to do Mr. President?

I'd want those numbers substantiated. Prove that the risks involved in flying to the Moon are too high to justify actually trying it for real, then prove that the risks of being caught faking it at any time in the future by emerging or as-yet uninvented technologies are sufficiently low to make that a better option.
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #123 on: January 25, 2013, 07:16:58 AM »
There are moon rocks on earth, especially in Antarctica (because they are easier to see.)  There are also martian rocks on earth.

All of which, as has already been pointed out to you, show clear indications of unprotected passage through the atmosphere at high speed and having sat unprotected in the environment of Earth for an indeterminate number of hours, days or years. Do you wish to claim that a geologist can't tell the difference between a rock that has been subjected to that kind of treatment from one that has been picked up from an airless environment and stored under vacuum until examined on Earth in the lab? Do you also wish to explain the soil and core tube samples from Apollo, which are even less easily brushed under the carpet as meteorites?

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Russia has moon rocks they brought back from unmanned missions (which means if the Apollo moon rocks actually came from the moon, it does not prove we put a man on the moon.)

Yes, Russia did bring back some soil and small rocks. Their sample return capacity was orders of magnitude poorer than Apollo. Where is the evidence of the incredible unmanned sample return capability that can include rocks the size of a football and three-metre long core tubes that would be required to explain the Apollo haul if it were not collected by manned missions?

Also, if an unmanned sample return capability did exist, as you are now suggesting, what was so much harder about a manned one?

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Scientists also say the moon was knocked off as a chunk of the earth, which means moon rocks are made of the same material as earth rocks.

With differences caused by the very different ways the two bodies developed after that event. An event, by the way, that was hypothesised as a direct result of studying the Apollo lunar rock and soil samples.

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So FORGET your moon rock theory.

As you have forgotten to respond to the question about your engineering colleagues from companies that were heavily involved in Apollo and the space program at the time?

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As far as the LEM having a rendezvous radar, the radar-guided Patriot missile during the Gulf War missed 9 out of 10 targets.  That was 1991.

Prove that the challenge of guiding an unmanned surface to air missile towards an aircraft travelling at high speed and capable of attempting to evade it is even remotely comparable to the challenge of providing radar information to human pilots co-operating in bringing together two nearly co-orbital spacecraft with approach rates measured in the low feet per second range, and you might begin to have a point there.

You are still evidently labouring under your misconception that the LM liftoff and docking was something like a missile shot. Why?

Also, perhaps you could tell us how precisely the patriot missile needed to know its launch co-ordinates in order to find its target. Or did it simply go off in roughly the right direction and use the radar to actively find the target aircraft?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #124 on: January 25, 2013, 07:19:15 AM »
Look people, NASA goes to the president and says, if we try to go to the moon, the chances of success are 50/50.  If we fake it, the chances of success are 100% and nobody will ever suspect us.  What do you want to do Mr. President?

I'd want those numbers substantiated. Prove that the risks involved in flying to the Moon are too high to justify actually trying it for real, then prove that the risks of being caught faking it at any time in the future by emerging or as-yet uninvented technologies are sufficiently low to make that a better option.

It's all hand-waving and delusions of the hyper-active imaginations of a hoax believer. The risks (IIRC) that Armstrong put out were 50:50 of the first landing succeeding and 70:30 for them retuning successfully (I am open to correction on this as I am going from memory), not of the whole endeavour.

There will be no historical record of such a meeting taking place. This is a key point that HBs miss time after time after time...just because some idiot imagines that something could or might have happened does not mean that it did. Or indeed, that there ever was a desire for it to happen.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline cos

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #125 on: January 25, 2013, 07:41:06 AM »
I wonder if Alex could use his claimed expertise in rocketery to explain how the CM & LM's in both Apollo 9 & 10 missions achieved orbital rendezvous and how this in no way meant that Apollo 11 could do the same?

Or was it all done in a studio (whilst offering no evidence that it was and ignoring all evidence that it wasn't), so you can simply wave your hands and ignore the question?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 07:46:39 AM by cos »

Offline Inanimate Carbon Rod

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #126 on: January 25, 2013, 07:56:03 AM »
Look people, NASA goes to the president and says, if we try to go to the moon, the chances of success are 50/50.  If we fake it, the chances of success are 100% and nobody will ever suspect us.  What do you want to do Mr. President?

I'd want those numbers substantiated. Prove that the risks involved in flying to the Moon are too high to justify actually trying it for real, then prove that the risks of being caught faking it at any time in the future by emerging or as-yet uninvented technologies are sufficiently low to make that a better option.

I think the 50/50 may come from a quote of Mike Collins' Carrying the Fire in which he estimated there was a 50/50 chance of the lunar landings successful, safe completion.
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Offline ineluki

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #127 on: January 25, 2013, 08:48:43 AM »

 The government lies all the time.  NASA is the government.  Why do people believe them?   

The Government lies all the time, the National Institute of Mental Health is the government and they say suicide is bad. So, suicide must be a good thing - and unless you are the dishonest troll we all realize you are, why don't you act according to that logic?


Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #128 on: January 25, 2013, 10:02:51 AM »
There are moon rocks on earth, especially in Antarctica (because they are easier to see.)

And they differ in important ways from the Apollo specimens, primarily in the properties we identified above.

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Scientists also say the moon was knocked off as a chunk of the earth, which means moon rocks are made of the same material as earth rocks.

Do you really think geology thinks that simplistically about the Apollo samples, moon rocks, or rocks in general?

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So FORGET your moon rock theory.  It's forever solidly debunked.

No, we've just found another subject on which you know practically nothing, and are just regurgitating the claims of the haox web sites you've read.

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It does not prove anyone, even Buzz Armstrong, ever set foot on the moon.

That's right: nobody named "Buzz Armstrong" ever set foot on the Moon.  How much did you say you'd studied the Apollo missions?

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As far as the LEM having a rendezvous radar, the radar-guided Patriot missile during the Gulf War missed 9 out of 10 targets.  That was 1991.

I think it's cute that you believe those are even remotely the same kind of problem.  Orbital rendezvous has almost nothing in common with a tactical missile interception.  Again you're trying to play fast and loose with layman's intuition to make it seem like you're some kind of engineer with relevant competence.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline twik

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #129 on: January 25, 2013, 10:12:46 AM »
Troll.
Oh yeah... well, I'm rubber and you're glue...

Look people, NASA goes to the president and says, if we try to go to the moon, the chances of success are 50/50.  If we fake it, the chances of success are 100% and nobody will ever suspect us.  What do you want to do Mr. President?

Well, if I were Mr. President, I would respond, "But faking it means that we will also have to create a  perfect hoax. How are we going to create hours of video footage of a wide area with low gravity and no atmosphere? How are we going to ensure that no one notices from radio transmissions that things are not what they seem? How will we prevent other countries from finding out after the fact, and leaving us with egg on our faces? Our chances of success are NOT 100% with a hoax, they're much less than 50/50. So, let's go with the real deal. It'll be cheaper and easier."

Your problem, alexsanchez, is that you assume that creating the hoax is easy. It's not. It would be more difficult, in fact, to fake the landings than to actually do them.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #130 on: January 25, 2013, 10:16:33 AM »
Look people, NASA goes to the president and says, if we try to go to the moon, the chances of success are 50/50.

That number comes from one offhand estimate from one person during Apollo 11, reported in retrospect.  It's not the product of computation or statistics.  No one really was able to determine the probability of success for Apollo 11, nor did it really matter because there was always another Apollo mission to try.

But if you want a comparision, there was only a 3 in 4 chance any test pilot during that era would live to the end of his career.  People do dangerous things.  Crab fishing is statistically more dangerous than being an astronaut or test pilot.

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If we fake it, the chances of success are 100% and nobody will ever suspect us.  What do you want to do Mr. President?

What do you mean no one will ever suspect?  Hoax believers claim their doubt goes all the way back to the missions themselves, and there is testimony to support that.  The first formal hoax book came out within 3 years of the termination of the program.

Oh and you forgot two important facts.  The first is the important addition to the dialogue:  "Oh, by the way Mr. President, if we do somehow get caught faking it, you'll be impeached, the civil servants and industry captains in charge will go to federal prison for decades, and the U.S. will lose all credibility on the world stage -- all that will be attributed to your presidency."

The second is the fact that the Mr. President to whom this dialogue would have been directed was not the same Mr. President that presided when the missions were actually flown (or faked, according to you).  There was a complete change of guard during Apollo.  And the incoming president was a bitter rival of the outgoing one, with no obligation or desire to keep his secrets.  What a great political coup to be able to accuse the opposing party and administration of gross misappropriation of taxpayer money.

Let's add another fact.  Kennedy was not all that excited about going to the Moon.  Initially he said no.  NASA had to put the hard sell on the Kennedy administration to get them to adopt that as the nation's premier scientific program.  NASA and its political backers had to practically ensure success before Kennedy would agree to it.  That's the way history really happened.  In the conspiracy theorists' comic-book version of history, Kennedy surprised NASA by telling them they had to do this great thing, and they reluctantly had to report it wasn't possible.  Sorry, it didn't happen that way.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #131 on: January 25, 2013, 10:22:54 AM »
what about the insults towards me?

You have not been insulted.  Your obviously bogus and inflated credentials have been revealed as the hogwash they are, but that's because you foolishly put that argument out there.  It is quite a common tactic to claim expertise as the basis for one's claim, then to retreat to personal insult and injury when that expertise is laid bare.  I assure you no one falls for it.  Man up, and either support your claims to expertise or abandon them.

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But, I can always sign on as somebody else.

And that would be a sock puppet, which is a bannable offense.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline twik

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #132 on: January 25, 2013, 10:23:45 AM »
In reference to the "50/50" - Apollo had failures. However, the "try, try again" principle means that ultimate success, building on those failures, is much more likely than 50/50.

It's not like the Apollo capsule fire or Apollo 13 were the end of the program. If one mission did not succeed, the following mission was developed by people who learned from those failures.

Offline Chew

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #133 on: January 25, 2013, 10:29:15 AM »
There are moon rocks on earth, especially in Antarctica (because they are easier to see.)

How do you know they came from the Moon if you don't have Moon rocks to compare them to?


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  There are also martian rocks on earth.  Russia has moon rocks they brought back from unmanned missions

What evidence do you have that Russian unmanned missions returned lunar dust? Don't all governments lie? Why do you believe the Russian government when they tell you they came from the Moon?

Offline Noldi400

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #134 on: January 25, 2013, 12:12:03 PM »
"Does the fact that your parents lied to you about Santa Claus when you were a kid mean that you can't believe anything they told you?"

My parents also lied to me about the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and where babies come from.  I never believed them after that.

What a sad, pathetic thing to say.  If this really is the way you live in the world, I actually pity you.

Let me guess... you believe in the tooth fairy, don't you?  You are very gullible and very naive.  I pity you.  You are a sheep.  Yet, I must protect you from the New World Order.  I must force you sheeple to wake up.  It's for your own good.  Evil awaits you unless you follow me.

I believe the Master Plan has that scheduled for... let me see, I had it right here a minute ago...
Ah! Here it is!

"Any day now."



 
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Look people, NASA goes to the president and says, if we try to go to the moon, the chances of success are 50/50.

That number comes from one offhand estimate from one person during Apollo 11, reported in retrospect.  It's not the product of computation or statistics.  No one really was able to determine the probability of success for Apollo 11, nor did it really matter because there was always another Apollo mission to try.

And, IIRC, that estimate was given in the context of something happening to prevent a successful landing and return of AS-11, not a disaster or failure of the whole program.  If, for example, Armstrong had not been able to find a flat spot he had only a few seconds remaining before they would have been forced to abort the landing and return to Columbia.  NASA would have made some adjustments and tried again with AS-12.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 12:45:14 PM by Noldi400 »
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