Author Topic: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?  (Read 420393 times)

Offline Andromeda

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #600 on: January 31, 2013, 11:31:46 AM »
sts60, your posts are EPIC.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Count Zero

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #601 on: January 31, 2013, 11:32:55 AM »
The Hasselblad EDC used  a 70mm Biogon lens....
Actually the lunar surface cameras had nonremovable 60 mm f/5.6 lenses carefully matched to their Reseau plates. The cameras for internal cabin use lacked Reseau plates so they could use removable lenses with a variety of focal lengths.


The lenses were replaceable.  On the J-missions they took a 500mm lens for shooting mosaics of distant terrain.  I recall dialogue (I think it was from Apollo 16 last EVA) where an astronaut asks if they're done with the long lens, and the Capcom tells him, yeah, he can toss it.  *cringe*
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline Al Johnston

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #602 on: January 31, 2013, 11:38:30 AM »
I recall dialogue (I think it was from Apollo 16 last EVA) where an astronaut asks if they're done with the long lens, and the Capcom tells him, yeah, he can toss it.  *cringe*

*also cringe*
*turn particularly bilous shade of envious green*

On the bright side, 1/6th g should mean only a few cosmetic scratches on the barrel; now if I could only scrape together the $40bn or so it would take to go & pick it up... ;D
"Cheer up!" they said. "It could be worse!" they said.
So I did.
And it was.

Offline Count Zero

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #603 on: January 31, 2013, 11:43:36 AM »
Re: Lunokhod, I seem to recall a conspiracy theory about them from several years ago.  It was the perfect compliment to Apollo hoax CTs.  You see, while NASA did not have the technology to send people to the Moon, the USSR did not have the technology to build a remotely-controlled lunar rover so they put a human midget inside each one on a suicide-mission to drive them on the Moon.

 :o
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline sts60

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #604 on: January 31, 2013, 12:16:52 PM »
sts60, your posts are EPIC.
(blushes) Well, thank you, but Jay, Bob, ka9q, etc. are doing all the heavy lifting in this thread.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #605 on: January 31, 2013, 12:21:41 PM »
they put a human midget inside each one on a suicide-mission to drive them on the Moon.

 :o

Because of course if you were a midget in the Soviet Union, there would be no greater honor than to glorify the proletariat by dying anomalously on the moon.  :o
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline RAF

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Re: Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #606 on: January 31, 2013, 12:24:31 PM »
I don't think RCS is ever used with the main engine.

You don't know?..why do you post about something you know nothing about?


edit to add...and why do I post essentially the same as others already have?....because I missed reading a page...DOH!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 12:26:45 PM by RAF »

Offline raven

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Re: Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #607 on: January 31, 2013, 12:35:17 PM »
I don't think RCS is ever used with the main engine.

You don't know?..why do you post about something you know nothing about?


edit to add...and why do I post essentially the same as others already have?....because I missed reading a page...DOH!
It is a little mean spirited of me, but a blunder of such magnitude bears reminding, especially since they have shown, as yet, no understanding of exactly what they got wrong.
They tried to Bluff, but rolled a 1. And the DM in the sky gave them a circumstance penalty for ignorance of the topic matter.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 12:39:36 PM by raven »

Offline gillianren

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #608 on: January 31, 2013, 12:43:41 PM »
bring it on.

Let's start simple.  You have to capitalize the first letter of every sentence every time, junior.  Not just when you feel like it.  Work on that, and then we can build up to the big leagues--your woeful misunderstandings about orbital mechanics.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline alexsanchez

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Re: Moonrocks in the head.
« Reply #609 on: January 31, 2013, 01:13:34 PM »
HOW DO YOU FAKE A ROCK?
Dontcha know that NASA can do anything it sets its mind to, except go to the Moon.

So they used the:

The New and Improved MagiTech™ MoonRock Oven®
Will fool every geologist in the world, even those you haven't bribed yet!
*

(*Not available in this and the next 3 parallel Universes. Sales Taxes where applicable.)

Come to think of it, how many geologists live in million-dolar mansions and drive Maseratis?


Why so testy?  Sounds like someone who knows they're on thin ice.  I must be striking a nerve.  The truth does not suffer investigation.
So why don't you start investigating.

So far you have only mindlesly regurgitated nonsense fabricated by hoax promoters.
Why are you such a sheeple?
You should be nice to me.  I'm the one trying to get you off the moon.  I'm not regurgitating nonsense.  My nonsense (IMU alignment) is original.  I understand your discomfort with originality.  Sheeple?  Moi?  That's called "projecting."  A great man once said, or maybe it was Pee Wee Herman, "I know you are but what am I?"


Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #610 on: January 31, 2013, 01:15:23 PM »
I can launch a spacecraft from 180 degrees around the planet from my target vehicle and still effect a rendezvous with it using a series of phasing steps.  These techniques were worked out in the early 1960s and practiced during Gemini.  And it's how we've accomplished every orbital rendezvous since -- 4 decades' worth.  You're still suck on the "hit a bullet with a bullet" layman's misconception.

On first reading, I took that as "180o out of plane". Duh. I was thinking, boy, I hope he brought a BP credit card along. :-[
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline RAF

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #611 on: January 31, 2013, 01:20:07 PM »
I'm not regurgitating nonsense.  My nonsense (IMU alignment) is original.

It may be original to you...it is not original to us.


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I understand your discomfort with originality.

It's time for you to knock off this "amateur psychiatry" crap. I'm getting tired of it, and it obviously does not apply.





Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #612 on: January 31, 2013, 01:24:21 PM »
How about 3 decimal places in feet, since the CM is only 60 miles up? If you're off by a hair, it turns into miles down range.

No.  It's hard to imagine where to begin addressing all the fail[ure] in this statement.

First, three decimal places in feet is 0.001 foot or 0.012 inch, or about 3 sheets of cheap laser printer paper (ca. 0.004 inch per page).  Do you really think rockets launched from Earth are routinely placed on the launch pad to that precision?  Do you really think the have to be?  Do you honestly think through these claims before you make them?

No, it was never a requirement to fix the launch position of any space vehicle to that precision, no matter its mission or destination.  You're just pulling numbers out of your orifice because you have no clue what you're talking about and want to sound impressive.  Laymen think everything in aerospace has to be established to absurd tolerances.  Some things yes.  It takes an engineer to know which.  Laymen just apply absurd requirements across the board.

Second, guidance and propulsion dispersion accounts for far more error.  Dispersion can be thought of as fastening a rifle in a vise on a sturdy anchor and then firing several shots at a very distant target.  The shots still cluster and do not simply pass through the same hole exactly.  This is due to the compounded error of several factors that generally cannot be controlled to sufficient precision, such as jitter in the IMU pickoffs or thrust bursts below the resolution of the accelerometers.  This is practical space flight, which accounts for all such things and trims them at the end.  Guidance is never just open-loop dead reckoning, although a layman might mistakenly think so.

Third, no -- errors in launch site position do not compound, as the attached drawing illustrates.  Downrange position errors at the launch site result in commensurate downrange position errors at the insertion point.  They do not compound.  This is a classic layman's mistake.  No one who has any experience with inertial guidance of any sort would make this sort of error.  It is fundamental.  It is elementary.  It's like an "expert" chef not knowing the difference between cheese and an egg.

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I've personally witnessed that when somebody gave me an equation with a wrong sign (+/-) that caused an error in the least significant bit of a calculation related to IMU alignment, which gets integrated (added repeatedly),

Yes, IMU alignment is important.  However it has nothing to do with the launch position.

IMU gimbal angles are picked off as a 16-bit unsigned value, typically.  The physics of how it's measured preclude much higher resolution without unacceptable noise.  The AGC had a 15-bit word, so the Apollo IMUs read out in 15-bit unsigned values.  So 360°/(215) produces a metrical resolution of 0.011°.  You can't measure angles any smaller than that using the IMU.  Here's the part you didn't know:  Theodolite alignments are precise only to about 0.05°.  So you've already accumulated five times as much measurement error as you say your coding bug caused.

Optical measurement in a stationary LM is possible to 0.02° (with astronauts demonstrating interpolation ability to near 0.01°) using the AOT.  The pre-launch IMU alignment procedure uses three factors, although theoretically only two factors are required to achieve suitable alignment.  These are combinations of gravity measurements and celestial sightings.  Three factors are used to allow one factor to be grossly in error; only two of the factors have to work.  Today's off-the-shelf automatic star trackers achieve 3-10 arcseconds (0.0008-0.0027°) of precision, now finer than most IMU resolutions.

The salient points are these.

1. Your reliance on the necessity of theodolite measurements from a carefully surveyed reference point is a red herring.  In fact (and this was demonstrated in ICBM programs), celestial sighting is and has always been a better method.  It is not used for initial IMU measurements at Earth launch because it is generally not available.

2. Existing guidance system performance is already demonstrably sloppier than what you claim is required, yet we manage to operate spacecraft successfully in missions that include substantial pointing constraints.

3. Dispersions resulting from guidance jitter are common and accepted.

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...and they almost aborted a launch in flight...

Name the vehicle and payload, launch date and location.  You won't because I know you're lying again.  No launch is ever aborted because of LSb errors in guidance.  That's negligible.  Strap-down gyros generate far more error than that just in normal operation, and are tolerable.

Do you honestly think these tall tales are really fooling anyone?

The minimum IMU alignment error -- that is, the finest the IMU could be aligned by any means -- accepts a downrange error in the final insertion point, at an altitude of roughly 9 nautical miles, on the order of 3,000 feet.  More than half a nautical mile!  That's as accurate as any such IMU could ever be, even in an Earth launch (which goes to much higher altitudes and compounds the IMU jitter to a much greater error).  Tell me all about the bullet-with-a-bullet expectation again.  Let's say the astronaut bungled the IMU celestial alignment by as much as 0.1° -- an absurdly large error, corresponding to an uncorrected IMU drift.  With the error compounded through guidance integration, that's a downrange error on the order of 5 nautical miles, which is well within the sequencing maneuver's tolerance.

So what do you do about it?

Well, you simply adjust the timing of the next phasing burn.  See, you're under the mistaken impression that you're trying to hit the CSM flying overhead in a single-shot maneveuver -- the "bullet with a bullet" misconception.  That's not how rendezvous works.  In fact you let the CSM fly overhead and go downrange a bit.  Then you ascend and insert into a lower (and therefore faster) orbit.  You may botch that insertion.  You may be significantly up- or downrange from your desired insertion point.

Doesn't matter!  The CSM is far ahead of you, and you're in a lower orbit.  You have a whole set of rendezvous sequencing maneuvers ahead of you to make those orbits coincide.  There never was a constraint that the inserted orbit coincide with the target orbit, hence no expectation that it should.  The ascent flight plan required these maneuvers in all cases, so any ascent dispersions are simply folded into the exact parameters for those maneuvers, to be determined on the fly (literally).

Determined how?  By using your radar to measure the angle, distance, and relative velocity between you and the target vehicle.  If you know the orbit of one of those vehicles, you can use those measurements to derive the orbit of the other.  Then the rendezvous phasing computations take hold.  It doesn't matter what those orbits are.  It only matters that you can measure what they end up to be.

So you discover that because your IMU was grossly out of alignment, you ended up five nautical miles downrange from your desired insertion point.  Ermagherd!  How will it ever be possible to fix that!  By the highly touchy procedure of ... (wait for it) ... starting the next phasing burn 5.5 seconds earlier than the baseline.  Oh my golly, how can any astronaut hope to be able to do that!?  Yes, we can literally be miles off and still rendezvous.

So why bother trying to fix the launch position at all?  Why bother timing the liftoff at all?  Because to ascend and redezvous quickly and with the minimum expenditure of fuel is safer.  We have the ability to fix the launch position to within a few miles, so do it.  We have the ability to time the launch to the split-second, so do it.  If done well, the result is a minimal phasing burn with minimum wait time.  Earlier I said I could launch with the CSM an hour ahead of me and still be able to rendezvous.  The catch is that in my lower orbit I'd have to wait several hours for those orbits to come into the proper phase, and with limited consumables on my spacecraft I don't want to.  Those orbits will still coincide, but may do so only after I run out of oxygen.  So I can perform a retrograde burn (velocity is a vector) and drop to an even lower, even faster orbit to speed up the rendezvous.  But that's energy I'll need back later.  I'll need to perform a bigger posigrade burn on my next sequencing step.  And fuel is a scalar, which means I may run out of fuel if I speed up the process to fit within my oxygen consumables window.

But wait!  There's another spacecraft!  The CSM also has the ability to change its orbit.  If I'm so far out of phase that I won't be able to get in phase before my oxygen runs out, and too low on fuel to be able to speed that process up before, I can ask the CSM to ascend to a higher, slower orbit so that I can catch up faster.  Then it can perform active-vehicle phasing burns to get me there.  What a wonderfully well thought out process that was!

Now keep in mind that this had nothing to with the LM's launch position.  You are constantly and amusingly conflating those.  IMU alignment and launch position are not at all related.  Yes, both can produce errors that result in errors in the insertion point, to be corrected by adjusting the rendezvous sequencing timing.  But you attribute the effects of one to the kind of error produced by the other -- something no one would do if they had any knowledge or experience in this.

If I'm making an impression on you, it should be that you demonstrably have absolutely no clue how to fly a spacecraft in space.  Don't pretend you do.

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In the meantime, what year are we supposed to have another manned lunar mission?

As soon as the political will supports it.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #613 on: January 31, 2013, 01:25:28 PM »
On first reading, I took that as "180o out of plane". Duh. I was thinking, boy, I hope he brought a BP credit card along. :-[

Out of phase, out of plane.  It's all the same right?  You still have to hit a bullet with a bullet, right?  ;D
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Moonrocks in the head.
« Reply #614 on: January 31, 2013, 01:30:19 PM »
You should be nice to me. 

We've been very restrained in the face of your abuse and insults.

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I'm the one trying to get you off the moon.

We know how to get off the moon.  YOU don't.


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I'm not regurgitating nonsense.  My nonsense (IMU alignment) is original.

No, it's not.


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I understand your discomfort with originality.

HA!  What was more original that going to the moon?


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Sheeple?  Moi?  That's called "projecting."

Cut the armchair psychiatry.  You know less about that than you do the LM... and that's saying something.



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A great man once said, or maybe it was Pee Wee Herman, "I know you are but what am I?"

Oh, yeah, quote a sex offender while demanding respect  ::)
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.