Author Topic: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site  (Read 15684 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2016, 07:50:25 AM »
The more reflective surfaces of the metal versus the regolith, probably.
I doubt the metal is still anywhere near the crater, given the very large energy released in such a small volume. The 'rays' are secondary impacts of lunar material thrown out by the primary impact.

Offline bknight

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2016, 07:54:00 AM »
The more reflective surfaces of the metal versus the regolith, probably.
I doubt the metal is still anywhere near the crater, given the very large energy released in such a small volume. The 'rays' are secondary impacts of lunar material thrown out by the primary impact.
Why do you suspect that outcome?  From looking at crash site there is a lot of material at the impact site with debris radiating from the impact site.  Even with less gravity, there should be material left at the impact.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2016, 11:12:54 AM »
Why do you suspect that outcome?  From looking at crash site there is a lot of material at the impact site with debris radiating from the impact site.  Even with less gravity, there should be material left at the impact.
Any object that hits the moon from beyond lunar orbit must do so with at least lunar escape velocity (2.38 km/s). The S-IVBs hit with roughly 2.5-2.6 km/s. That makes the specific energy almost equal to the chemical energy of TNT; in other words, the impact of a 16 ton S-IVB released about as much energy as the detonation of about 11 tonnes of TNT. That would certainly vaporize the stage and produce an expanding fireball. Some of the energy would then excavate and eject lunar material, most of it at suborbital velocities to fall back to the surface as visible crater rays. The mass of this material would be considerably greater than the mass of the stage itself, so even if the latter were to quickly condense and fall back along with the excavated lunar material, it would comprise only a small fraction of the total.

Besides, many young natural craters have well defined rays even when they're carved by stony meteoroids; those rays are well known to be secondary impacts from ejected lunar material.

Offline bknight

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2016, 11:21:44 AM »
Why do you suspect that outcome?  From looking at crash site there is a lot of material at the impact site with debris radiating from the impact site.  Even with less gravity, there should be material left at the impact.
Any object that hits the moon from beyond lunar orbit must do so with at least lunar escape velocity (2.38 km/s). The S-IVBs hit with roughly 2.5-2.6 km/s. That makes the specific energy almost equal to the chemical energy of TNT; in other words, the impact of a 16 ton S-IVB released about as much energy as the detonation of about 11 tonnes of TNT. That would certainly vaporize the stage and produce an expanding fireball. Some of the energy would then excavate and eject lunar material, most of it at suborbital velocities to fall back to the surface as visible crater rays. The mass of this material would be considerably greater than the mass of the stage itself, so even if the latter were to quickly condense and fall back along with the excavated lunar material, it would comprise only a small fraction of the total.

Besides, many young natural craters have well defined rays even when they're carved by stony meteoroids; those rays are well known to be secondary impacts from ejected lunar material.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2016, 06:40:21 PM »
Yeah, the velocities involved in collisions in space (or on the airless moon) are well beyond ordinary human experience, so intuition is not a good guide as to what happens. (That was one of the many things about the movie Gravity that really bugged me. Space debris is not that dense, but it's generally much smaller and moves much faster. Bullets are much slower, but you still don't see them coming.)

Anyway, the usual impact speed of a meteoroid on the moon is probably well above escape velocity, more like 30 km/s, the orbital speed of the earth/moon system around the sun. At those velocities, each gram of impactor is something like 100 grams of TNT since energy goes as velocity squared. Since the impactor buries itself under a thin layer of regolith and then stops, the effect is almost exactly like a shallow sub-surface explosion of a very powerful explosive -- more powerful than any chemical explosive known (but still nothing like a nuclear explosion.)

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2016, 02:23:57 PM »
While we're on the subject of impact sites, has anyone ever found a definitive LRO image of Apollo 14's 'Antares' impact location? I've been trying to track down impact sites in Apollo photographs and this one is a bit of a conundrum.

The Apollo 14 PSR gives a location for the impact based on triangulating results from the seismic stations left behind of -3.42 -19.67 and helpfully includes a labelled photograph.

However, the coordinates of the location given on the diagram are nowhere near what it is pointing to, which is more like -3.72 -21.46!

Here's the picture from my own copy of it, as the online ones aren't that great:



So, there's the first bit of confusion.

The second bit of confusion comes from the Apollo 16 PSR, which also discusses man made impacts, and shows what it claims is a detail of the Antares' impact as seen in Metric Image AS16-M-2512. Here's a section of it from the ASU's site rotated to match the view in the PSR. The quote from the PSR says "The Apollo 14 LM ascent stage impact location showing dark ejecta blanket at large phase angle".



The PSR isn't specific, but from the way the image is presented I believe it is referring to the impact crater in that I've outlined with a red square, and whose co-ordinates roughly match those given. The problem is that I think it very unlikely that this is Antares.

When you look at the LRO's shots on that area there aren't any high quality views (that I've found) that are helpful. Chandrayaan covers the area reasonably well, and here is it's view of that precise area:



By looking at the locations of the other craters in the Apollo 16 Metric camera image, I believe that the crater it is picking out is the bright and obviously fresh impact crater, complete with dark rays just off the centre line of the image. Here's the same area of the Metric image, stretched and rotated to compensate for the angle and compared with the same location in Chandrayaan so you can check my logic!



The problem with this crater is that is 50 metres across, and a report I read suggested 4m +/-2 was more likely.

More importantly, it can also be seen in an Apollo 12 photograph (AS12-54-8087). Here's the relevant bit of that Apollo 12 image covering the same area, with some level adjustment and sharpening:



The dark smudge in Chandrayaan's photo west of the bright crater is also discernible and is actually a shallow crater, as is more obvious on this LRO image:



The cross marks the location of the bright impact crater.

I also think that while the Panoramic Camera might have been able to resolve a 4m crater, I think it's a stretch to suggest the Metric camera could resolve that level of detail, particularly at that angle!

Or am I looking at the wrong crater again?

Offline ka9q

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2016, 12:40:48 AM »
Yes, 50m is too big for an ascent stage. That's about the size of an S-IVB impact crater, and the S-IVB is both heavier and faster moving than an ascent stage.

If you do find LRO images of the area, try to find one taken at a high sun elevation (a low phase angle when seen from overhead). Fresh craters and their rays appear very bright and old ones are very low in contrast, so it should stand out. The LM ascent stages also hit at extremely shallow angles so their craters and their ejecta blankets should be distinctly asymmetric, with most of the ejecta to the west of the crater.


Offline Zakalwe

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2016, 04:39:53 AM »
Hunchbacked is actually a whistle-blower for the hoax community. After all, anyone with only half a working brain would realise that he has completely cocked up here by confusing the booster with the ascent module. Such an obvious and glaring mistake can only be the work of a whistle-blower desperately trying to send a signal out to the world that the hoax story is a sham. He's clearly under threat from the leaders of the hoax community and cannot come straight out and declare the whole thing a sham. Jarrah is probably watching his every move and will force Hunchbacked to listen to endless loops of his whining nasal voice if he catches poor old Hunchie spilling the beans.
Watch any of Hunchbacked's videos. There are loads of glaring errors that anyone with a working intellact will spot. The dude is clearly signalling for help here and trying to blow the whole hoax story. The Illuminati of the hoax world are on to him though.....



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« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 04:42:16 AM by Zakalwe »
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Offline Kiwi

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2016, 06:47:22 AM »
Our old friend Hunchbacked has made a schoolboy error with this news:



Oops.

Yes, mistaking a big S-IVB for a much smaller lunar module ascent stage is the sort of error we can expect from some hoax-believers.

But has Hunchy also made another schoolboy error with the following statement in his video at 0:56?
Quote
This deorbit command was consisting in thrusting the engine so to create deceleration which decreases the orbital speed enough to make the lunar module crash into the moon instead of flying around it.

His English is poor and I'm not familiar with how exactly the deorbit burns were performed (could someone here please enlighten us?), but I do know that when an orbiting body comes closer to the body it is orbiting, it's orbital speed increases. It doesn't decrease as Hunchbacked claims.

To me, he seems to be talking as if the LM was flying in an atmosphere and eventually flew too slowly for the atmosphere to hold it up.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 06:55:09 AM by Kiwi »
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2016, 07:07:42 AM »
He also says that the Lunar module "could have indefinitely orbited the Moon".  I'm not sure that that is correct either...the mascons had a big impact on orbit stability didn't they?
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Offline Allan F

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2016, 07:40:35 AM »
Yes, the mascons would have pertubed the orbit near equator enough for the ascent stage to have crashed within a few weeks. There are stable orbits around the moon, but they have higher inclinations.
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Offline bknight

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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2016, 08:09:40 AM »
http://scitechdaily.com/lunar-reconnaissance-orbiter-reveals-apollo-16-booster-rocket-impact-site/

Our old friend Hunchbacked has made a schoolboy error with this news:



Oops.
The video has been taken down already.


I didn't think that it would last long.
I have downloaded a copy if anyone wants to point and laugh.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline bknight

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Re: LRO finds Apollo 16 booster impact site
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2016, 08:11:11 AM »
Upload it somewhere as I would like to view it.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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