Author Topic: Countdown event timing  (Read 17333 times)

Offline ka9q

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Countdown event timing
« on: February 10, 2015, 11:39:21 AM »
Ever since I was a kid watching launches in real time, I've always wondered how and why certain pre-launch events are scheduled as they are. Obviously things like propellant loadings have to be done on a certain sequence well in advance of launch, with time allowed for chilldown and such, but what about the timing of events closer to launch?

I'm thinking of the swingarm retractions, the switch to internal power, and the switch to internal guidance (which I assume means "guidance release"). The CM access arm was retracted several minutes before launch, one of the S-IC arms retracted some seconds before launch, but most didn't retract until after first motion. That has always seemed somewhat dangerous to me, given the consequences of either an umbilical disconnect failure or failure of an arm to retract. These risks would be avoided by retracting the arms just before liftoff so you could still abort the launch if one fails to do so.

It just occurred to me that if you did retract the arms before liftoff and then had to hold, how would you empty the propellant tanks for a scrub? Maybe that's the reason -- once the arms retract, you're committed so you just have to make sure they work.

But why was the CM access arm retracted so soon? Was this to get out of the way of an LES firing in the event of a sudden emergency in which they wouldn't have time to climb out of the cabin anyway?

The switch to battery power occurs at T-50 seconds. Here the tradeoff is fairly obvious: you want to transfer as late as possible to conserve them, especially if you then have a hold, but at the same time you want to see them perform under load long enough to see that they're in good shape, so you can hold if they're not.

I assume "internal guidance" or "guidance release" refers to the moment that the inertial platform in the IU is physically uncaged and allowed to do its thing. I believe it's also the moment at which the launch REFSMMAT (the space-fixed coordinate system used by the platforms in the IU and CSM) has its X axis pointed straight up from the launch site. I can see why you wouldn't want to do this too early, as it would allow the platform to drift, but why T-17 sec, specifically?

I can imagine that because there was so much manual prelaunch monitoring of the Saturn V (remember those shots of rows and rows of engineers at consoles in the KSC firing room) enough time had to be allowed after each event for the person monitoring it to call a hold if necessary. I suspect that with computer monitoring of modern launch vehicles, a lot of these events can be scheduled much more tightly with respect to liftoff.

Offline Bryanpoprobson

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 01:52:34 PM »
I seem to remember a shuttle launch being scrubbed, after the shuttle engines were lit.. Or am I imagining that? Must have been pretty late on the countdown clock.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 01:59:16 PM »
It just occurred to me that if you did retract the arms before liftoff and then had to hold, how would you empty the propellant tanks for a scrub? Maybe that's the reason -- once the arms retract, you're committed so you just have to make sure they work.

That is what I have understood from reading about Apollo.  They could safely scrub the launch any time before the hold down release and empty the tanks before sending in a ground crew to remove the astronauts.  But what a nervous time that would be sitting on top of that now failed candle with no goal to occupy/distract your mind but getting out of it. 
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 02:12:15 PM »
I seem to remember a shuttle launch being scrubbed, after the shuttle engines were lit.. Or am I imagining that? Must have been pretty late on the countdown clock.

Flight 41D on 26 June 1984.  Canceled at t-6 due to failure of an engine to start due to a stuck LOX valve.  Apparently a fire burned at the bottom for some time because of the excess hydrogen in the pad area. 
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Offline Bryanpoprobson

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 02:20:12 PM »
I seem to remember a shuttle launch being scrubbed, after the shuttle engines were lit.. Or am I imagining that? Must have been pretty late on the countdown clock.

Flight 41D on 26 June 1984.  Canceled at t-6 due to failure of an engine to start due to a stuck LOX valve.  Apparently a fire burned at the bottom for some time because of the excess hydrogen in the pad area.

Thanks for confirming I'm not senile (yet), just found the video of the scrub on youtube too. :)
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Offline Bob B.

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 02:20:52 PM »
I seem to remember a shuttle launch being scrubbed, after the shuttle engines were lit..

Gemini 6 as well.  Its first launch attempt on 12-Dec-65 was scrubbed when the first stage was automatically shut down one second after ignition.  The automatic shut down occurred because an electrical umbilical separated from the vehicle prematurely.  The successful launch of Gemini took place three days latter on 15-Dec.

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2015, 02:45:17 PM »
That is what I have understood from reading about Apollo.  They could safely scrub the launch any time before the hold down release and empty the tanks before sending in a ground crew to remove the astronauts.

The timing of the hold down release amazes me, especially over the last few seconds with the retraction of the remaining swing arms. If anyone gets a chance to watch Moon Machines - Saturn V, the engineers talk about the complexity of the problem. It's incredible to hear their account of the engineering.

Quote
But what a nervous time that would be sitting on top of that now failed candle with no goal to occupy/distract your mind but getting out of it.

I would just twiddle my thumbs. Honestly  :o
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 03:20:18 PM by Luke Pemberton »
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 03:32:40 PM »
I seem to remember a shuttle launch being scrubbed, after the shuttle engines were lit.. Or am I imagining that? Must have been pretty late on the countdown clock.

AFAIK, this happened five times on the launch pad in the Shuttle's history

http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/spaceflight/launch/shuttle-launch-pad-aborts/

STS 41D (Discovery) 26/06/1984 - #2 and #3 started, #1 didn't.

STS 51F (Challenger) 12/07/1984 - Coolant valve problem with #2

STS 55 (Columbia) 22/03/1993 - #3 engine failed to start correctly. Launch pad abort 6.5 second before SRB ignition.

STS 51 (Discovery) 12/08/1993 - Main engine start abort due to instrument failure.

STS 68 (Endeavour) 18/09/1994 - Triple engine shutdown 1.9 seconds before SRB ignition.

In all cases these aborts happened after the main engines started and just a few seconds before SRB ignition. As near as I can tell, all these shutdowns were commanded autonomously by computer. There are people here more knowledgeable than me who could probably elaborate on what would/could have happened if these engine shutdowns occurred after SRB ignition (or if that was even possible), but I can't imagine it would be anything good.

NOTE: There was also an "Abort to Orbit "with STS 51F when it eventually lauched two weeks later when No 1 engine failed almost 6 minutes into the flight. This resulted in the planned orbit not being reached. AFAIK the lower orbit was not mission critical.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 03:43:44 PM by smartcooky »
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Offline Bryanpoprobson

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2015, 03:50:22 PM »
STS 68 was the one I had in mind, just watched the video.. :) Thanks for that.. :)
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2015, 05:02:32 PM »
STS 68 was the one I had in mind, just watched the video.. :) Thanks for that.. :)



I would NOT want to be sitting in that cockpit when that happened.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 05:26:02 PM »
There are people here more knowledgeable than me who could probably elaborate on what would/could have happened if these engine shutdowns occurred after SRB ignition (or if that was even possible), but I can't imagine it would be anything good.
Once the solids ignite, there's no turning back. (You hear the term "launch commit" during Saturn V launches, but I don't think I've ever heard it during a shuttle launch. Nevertheless, you are definitely committed once the solids ignite. I think the hold-down bolts are fired at almost exactly the same time, but I'm not sure which is first.)

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2015, 06:43:42 PM »
Once the solids ignite, there's no turning back.

I know the design of SRBs is not simple, for example there was a recent discussion about the propellants being shaped to give a thrust profile. Crudely speaking, are you saying that once lit there is not much difference between an SRB and a firework or a homemade glucose rocket motor?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:48:29 PM by Luke Pemberton »
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Offline Allan F

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2015, 09:42:20 PM »
Once the solids ignite, there's no turning back.

I know the design of SRBs is not simple, for example there was a recent discussion about the propellants being shaped to give a thrust profile. Crudely speaking, are you saying that once lit there is not much difference between an SRB and a firework or a homemade glucose rocket motor?

Once fired, they either burn to completion or are destroyed by the range safety system. You can't stop them.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2015, 10:24:45 PM »
The STS SRB's when firing seem to me to be just barely short of an explosion. Many observers have been critical of their use on safety grounds (for the reasons stated by ka9q and AllanF) yet ones of a similar design look set to be used in the SLS that will put the Orion spacecraft in orbit with a crew in the next decade   

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Offline VQ

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Re: Countdown event timing
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2015, 11:55:39 PM »
The STS SRB's when firing seem to me to be just barely short of an explosion. Many observers have been critical of their use on safety grounds (for the reasons stated by ka9q and AllanF) yet ones of a similar design look set to be used in the SLS that will put the Orion spacecraft in orbit with a crew in the next decade   

At least with a capsule configuration you have abort modes while the solids are firing. With the shuttle, the crew was along for the ride until they burned out.

IMHO the main reason for using large solids is to form a subsidy to Thiokol, keeping them in the large solid rocket business so they can manufacture storable SLBMs. Many would disagree with that opinion though.