Recent Posts

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10
1
The Hoax Theory / Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Last post by Dalhousie on Today at 05:46:40 PM »
May be worth including the fact that both the Moon and Earth radiate thermal IR from their dark sides and well as when in daylight, and this may need to be included in the thermal balance.
2
The Hoax Theory / Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Last post by TimberWolfAu on Today at 05:19:10 PM »
The rate at which something loses heat through radiation depends more than you think on the amount of radiant heat it is simultaneously receiving. Objects in Earth orbit lose heat at a slower rate (and thereby generally maintain a higher temperature) simply because Earth is brighter; it reflects more light back into space than the Moon. That reflected light is heavy on infrared wavelengths, but in the Moon's case the albedo difference matters a lot.

Sweet, points to me :)

The first thing I thought of when I was reading the post was 'what was different about Apollo 8 compared to everything else we had done at that point?', with the obvious answer being; they were orbiting the moon. Then a few little 'info-nuggets' in the head kinda rolled together and I'm looking for the different rates at which the Earth and moon emit 'energy', and seeing it's not an insignificant difference. Seemed like the most likely reason, would be that all the manned flight up until then was around the Earth, so while they probably spent more time in the shade around Earth (no, I haven't looked into this, just a rough 'seems right to me' guess), they were also receiving more energy around Earth than they would the moon.
3
The Hoax Theory / Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Last post by Jason Thompson on Today at 02:14:48 PM »
Blackbody radiation is very counter intuitive

A statement that can apply to many fields of science and engineering, which many people who insist on using terms like 'basic physics' don't seem to grasp.

I'm not an expert by any means but I did have my little science brain entertained when I changed the door of my garage from a white one to a black one. It faces the sun most of the day. Now the inside of my garage gets like a sauna even in winter if it's a clear sunny day, and if my car is iced up on the driveway the end facing the garage door is often clear of ice before the end facing the sun!

Quote
Again memory is hazy; but did the Apollo craft need to rotate in space for reasons of temperature control, and did the astronauts complain that the LM was becoming too cold on the lunar surface?

Indeed. And on Apollo 13 Jim Lovell recalls they made a mistake putting the shades up on the windows to block the sun so they could sleep. Without the majority of the electronics operating the combination of the lack of heat from the internal systems and the blocked incoming solar radiation caused the interior temperature to drop and, as he tells it, it never really improved.
4
The Hoax Theory / Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Last post by Luke Pemberton on Today at 12:36:40 PM »
Indeed, the notion that metals are the best conductors of heat and the best conductors of electricity for special electron reasons is kind of fascinating.

The whole phonon (not a typo) and electron contributions to material properties was a monster, most of 2nd Year was solid state/magnetic material/dielectric and EM. We were introduced to the k-vectors and began to apply complex numbers to an increasing extent; which I found fascinating

Quote
I remember some idiot claiming that physics was basically just applied calculus when he should have said was that engineering is basically just applied calculus.

I had forgotten about that. That was an unintended touché moment by me. Seriously, both fields heavily rely on calculus, but the rest of your post (e.g. passive control in CSM) underlines the divergence between the fields. You belong to a field of professionals that build real systems that include humans in the system, I belong to a field that examines esoteric/applied science problems. The twain meets, but I would never claim I could build a spacecraft.

I know it was a waste of time, but this was the point I tried to make to najak: we have engineers, enthusiasts and other specialists here, we know the limits of our expertise and draw upon each others knowledge. He would not cut the mustard with 'it's not feasible' or 'but this is basic physics.'

Quote
But yes, we have mathematical formalisms and some hacky approximations to reason about "view factors."

Hacky. You just need to look at Quantum Electrodynamics and the adding and subtracting of infinities that caused Dirac so much agony, or how GR tends to infinity in highly curved space times but we can still manage to interpret those infinities.
5
The Hoax Theory / Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Last post by JayUtah on Today at 11:44:56 AM »
Blackbody radiation is very counter intuitive
Quite.

Quote
...as one explores EM radiation further (Maxwell) it really is not a simple problem. The physics of EM waves (and low energy electrons) interacting with electrons in metals is very involved.
Indeed, the notion that metals are the best conductors of heat and the best conductors of electricity for special electron reasons is kind of fascinating.

Quote
There have been lots of claims pertaining to 'it would get too hot!' My memory is hazy, but I recall a discussion about infrared absorption by the Apollo space craft, and how this depended on wavelength and the angle of the incident radiation. In which case we have a calculus problem. Funny how lots of engineering ends up with calculus.
I remember some idiot claiming that physics was basically just applied calculus when what he should have said was that engineering is basically just applied calculus. But yes, we have mathematical formalisms and some hacky approximations to reason about "view factors." And yes, this was actually simulated on a computer for the LM, using a predictably small number of modeled surfaces. To my knowledge it was the first use of computational radiometry in space engineering.

Quote
Again memory is hazy; but did the Apollo craft need to rotate in space for reasons of temperature control, and did the astronauts complain that the LM was becoming too cold on the lunar surface?
Both true. Passive thermal control in the CSM is mostly about reducing thermally induced stress in the assembly—a purely engineering problem. When you build something and you let half of it get very hot and the other half get very cold, you run into all kinds of problems and stresses. One answer is to rotate the stack at a rate best calculated to even out the temperature. For spacecraft like geostationary communication satellites, there are active systems that move heat around, since those spacecraft have pointing constraints inherent to their mission and can't be slow-roasted by rotation. The CMs that were docked to Skylab for a long period were actually painted white (i.e., with a different passive thermal control strategy) since they couldn't rotate either.

The LM had a peculiar problem in that the mass distribution for pitch stability put a lot of equipment in the back and the cockpit in the front. The plan was always to land with the sun at the crew's backs so that the spacecraft shadow could be a visual cue for the pilot. But this means that all that bulky equipment is the part of the ship taking the direct sunlight, and the cabin is on the shady side of the ship.

Part of the qualification for new spacecraft designs is vacuum roasting. You put the spacecraft in a vacuum chamber with massive radiant heaters on the walls. You then selectively roast the spacecraft on one side or the other to see what happens.
6
The Hoax Theory / Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Last post by Luke Pemberton on Today at 11:20:25 AM »
As physicists we examine blackbody radiation to introduce us to the ultraviolet catastrophe and how classical electromagnetism has limits at blue and UV frequencies. Blackbody radiation is very counter unitive, and as one explores EM radiation further (Maxwell) it really is not a simple problem. The physics of EM waves (and low energy electrons) interacting with electrons in metals is very involved. This looks like another physicists are not engineers problem.

There have been lots of claims pertaining to 'it would get too hot!' My memory is hazy, but I recall a discussion about infrared absorption by the Apollo space craft, and how this depended on wavelength and the angle of the incident radiation. In which case we have a calculus problem. Funny how lots of engineering ends up with calculus.

Again memory is hazy; but did the Apollo craft need to rotate in space for reasons of temperature control, and did the astronauts complain that the LM was becoming too cold on the lunar surface?
7
The Hoax Theory / Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Last post by JayUtah on Today at 10:02:37 AM »
The rate at which something loses heat through radiation depends more than you think on the amount of radiant heat it is simultaneously receiving. Objects in Earth orbit lose heat at a slower rate (and thereby generally maintain a higher temperature) simply because Earth is brighter; it reflects more light back into space than the Moon. That reflected light is heavy on infrared wavelengths, but in the Moon's case the albedo difference matters a lot.
8
The Hoax Theory / Re: Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched
« Last post by TimberWolfAu on January 12, 2025, 08:52:22 PM »
Oh lord, he is actually asking about the C-rock photo...

I'm having a chuckle at the moment.

Najak had put up one of his 'this doesn't work according to me, so in the interest of honesty and integrity, you should delete your post' comments on some complaints about Apollo 8. The response from the mods? They deleted Najaks comment, citing that they did so to maintain the integrity and honesty of the page :)

Nice to see his maintaining his scatter gun method of posting new topics about where Apollo didn't work correctly (according to him), wonder how long he'll manage to keep that up before they get sick of him?

On the side. I have a thought as to what might have been the reason for the "unexpected" temperature change, but I can't see any references to this occurring for Apollo 8 as it is.
9
The Reality of Apollo / Re: SPE data for solar cycles 19-21
« Last post by Jason Thompson on January 12, 2025, 10:28:13 AM »
What I found most depressing concerning Tim is the value for radiation was less than .24 m g/y(IIRC), which was an average number, and he thought it was a minimum for some reason and therefore could not have been achieved unless it was in LEO.  We all tried to tell him that .24 m g/y was an average number with values both greater than and less than were totally within reason.  Then he doubled down with ok, maybe for one mission but all missions?  Yes Henretta that is how numbers work, strange isn't it?  And Apollo flew to the Moon during several mission, landing during six of them.

Good lord his inability to understand that an average is not a minimum was staggering, as was his insistence of focusing on 2-dimensional representations and an inability to grasp that 3-dimensions change things dramatically, even when shown a simple cardboard model of the situation. I remember getting quite dogged with that one, mainly because it coincided with a time when I was being made redundant from the job I'd had for 13 years, so I had a lot of nervous energy that needed to go somewhere....
10
The Reality of Apollo / Re: Ascent module acceleration
« Last post by PDI-11 on January 12, 2025, 12:41:20 AM »
I thought it was as simple as dividing engine thrust (3500 lbf) by the ascent stage's gross weight in lunar gravity (10,300 pounds / 6).

I think I'm about to learn how wrong I am...   :D

10,300 pounds is the weight on Earth. Mass = weight/gravity, so mass = 10,300 lb/(32.2 ft/sec^2) = 320 lb*sec^2/ft. (If I remember correctly, that would be 320 slugs, but call it whatever you want as long as the units are consistent.  :) )

Since F=m*a, a=F/m = 3500 lb/(320 lb*sec^2/ft) = 10.9 ft/sec^2. In G's, that is 10.9 ft/sec^2/(32.2 ft/sec^2) = 0.34 G's.

Ironically, that is about 2 Moon G's, but we want to know the Earth G's.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10