Author Topic: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?  (Read 864602 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1125 on: January 25, 2013, 11:52:53 AM »
And because the lunar environment was alien - but comprehensibly so...

Indeed, to the cognoscenti.  But I surmise there remain individuals who personally cannot comprehend the comprehensibility (yes, Gillianren, laugh at my expense) of space.  To them it is foreign beyond all ability to manage, and thus their egos demand it be equally incomprehensible for all.  No experience on Earth, they imagine, can prepare a pilot for the total loss of terrestrial fixation.

This harks back to a point I make frequently throughout the Moon hoax debate saga.  People who truly understand the physical world -- and I habitually use engineers as an example, but others too -- attain that understanding by knowing how everything works, including the mundane.  I actually had this conversation Wednesday night over coffee with an airline marketing agent.  (We were drowning our sorrows over the grounding of our "baby" the 787 Dreamliner.)  The discussion came to some of the principal differences between the engineering mind and the marketing mind, and the point raised that engineers have a hard time "turning their brains off."  A good engineer is fascinated by the ordinary.  And once he understands why the ordinary happens, he is prepared to cope with the extraordinary.

What this creates is an abstract view of the universe.  Rather than seeing the familiar world as a set of unremarkable and easily disregarded stimuli, the engineer (professional or amateur) sees the world as one of several possible expressions of physical law.  As I write this, my table wobbles slightly.  The engineer is reminded of subjects such as resonance and elasticity.  When one has that reductionist habit of viewing the world, space simply becomes different values in the informal equations and relationships by which one already sees his surroundings.  It is that preparation that allows engineers to reason dispassionately enough about the physical world to create what they do.

In contrast the intuitive view of the universe accepts it all as one coherent whole.  The holistic view is just as informative as any other in making one's path through life adept.  The goal in each case is to relate cause to effect.  And that intuitive view encompasses air and sea.   Few these days have not been on a boat or in an airplane.  But it doesn't encompass space.  When one's experience is calibrated holistically, one can become quite anxious to contemplate an environment where so much has differed.  In an airplane you're simply high up on a moving platform.  Motion and altitude do not seem alien.  Banking into turns, and the feeling of rising and falling do not seem alien.  Commensurately although we may be uncomfortable at sea, it does not present us with many foreign variables.

But in summary, when a self-proclaimed engineer tells us how incomprehensibly foreign the space environment must be, it speaks in great volumes to whether he is successful as an engineer.  He does not seem to have the requisite abstract view of the physical world to understand it the way and engineer would need to relate to it.  The intuitive approach does not work here.

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...navigation training in planetariums (I refuse to say "planetaria"), etc., etc.

Well there's always plane'arium (South Park reference).  Or, as my colleague's ex-wife once referred to it, "a space aquarium."
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Offline gillianren

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1126 on: January 25, 2013, 12:33:52 PM »
You know, I've been accused of being a bad film critic because it's so hard for me to turn my brain off.  (My review of the most recent King Kong had a diatribe on predator/prey ratios.)  However, I think this means I can never be anything but a niche reviewer; I think there are plenty of people who appreciate that kind of thinking.  "This thing in the movie is wrong, and you probably won't be able to stop thinking about it" is actually valuable information I've been given from friends as to why I shouldn't see a movie that they really liked.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1127 on: January 25, 2013, 12:34:03 PM »
I note that Heiwa has appeared over on a UK based astronomy forum that I frequent.

He is still peddling his brand of BS. Strange that he can't seem to find his way back here to answer his outstanding questions.....
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Noldi400

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1128 on: January 25, 2013, 12:53:42 PM »
You know, I've been accused of being a bad film critic because it's so hard for me to turn my brain off.  (My review of the most recent King Kong had a diatribe on predator/prey ratios.)  However, I think this means I can never be anything but a niche reviewer; I think there are plenty of people who appreciate that kind of thinking.  "This thing in the movie is wrong, and you probably won't be able to stop thinking about it" is actually valuable information I've been given from friends as to why I shouldn't see a movie that they really liked.

You sound like me watching Scandal.  I should never have read all those Harlan Ellison's Watching columns.
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Offline Daggerstab

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1129 on: January 25, 2013, 02:51:38 PM »
 :( Aaaand another change. Now it's "It is not easy to pilot a space  ship as training and test flying with rocket modules on Earth is ... not available."

At least he fixed the wrong preposition ("on" used to be "in"), but the sentence is still a crime against the English language. (And reality.)

Also, "space ship pilots/cosmokrauts".  ::) Seriously, what's wrong with this guy? Senile dementia?

I'm going to provide a fuller diff later. It takes time. :(

Offline raven

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1130 on: January 25, 2013, 03:00:17 PM »
You know, I've been accused of being a bad film critic because it's so hard for me to turn my brain off.  (My review of the most recent King Kong had a diatribe on predator/prey ratios.)  However, I think this means I can never be anything but a niche reviewer; I think there are plenty of people who appreciate that kind of thinking.  "This thing in the movie is wrong, and you probably won't be able to stop thinking about it" is actually valuable information I've been given from friends as to why I shouldn't see a movie that they really liked.

You sound like me watching Scandal.  I should never have read all those Harlan Ellison's Watching columns.
I get the same way about zombie movies, and often horror movies in general, where the whole premise tends to be based on people acting as stupid as possible.

Offline nomuse

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1131 on: January 25, 2013, 03:16:18 PM »
You know, I've been accused of being a bad film critic because it's so hard for me to turn my brain off.  (My review of the most recent King Kong had a diatribe on predator/prey ratios.)  However, I think this means I can never be anything but a niche reviewer; I think there are plenty of people who appreciate that kind of thinking.  "This thing in the movie is wrong, and you probably won't be able to stop thinking about it" is actually valuable information I've been given from friends as to why I shouldn't see a movie that they really liked.

OT, but I have a feeling I would LOVE your critiques.  Is there a link you can share?

Offline Echnaton

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1132 on: January 25, 2013, 03:47:47 PM »
You know, I've been accused of being a bad film critic because it's so hard for me to turn my brain off.  (My review of the most recent King Kong had a diatribe on predator/prey ratios.)  However, I think this means I can never be anything but a niche reviewer; I think there are plenty of people who appreciate that kind of thinking.  "This thing in the movie is wrong, and you probably won't be able to stop thinking about it" is actually valuable information I've been given from friends as to why I shouldn't see a movie that they really liked.
Mrs Echnaton makes these kind of distinctions in the middle of movies and I move a few seats away so I can enjoy the film. She and I have different ideas of artistic judgement of movies separate from other media or even other movies.
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Offline twik

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1133 on: January 25, 2013, 04:17:47 PM »
My review of the most recent King Kong had a diatribe on predator/prey ratios.

I ... I thought I was the only one who wondered about that....

Offline nomuse

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1134 on: January 25, 2013, 04:36:19 PM »
And in the next remake, Kong is a giant sloth.  He spends most of his time in waking hibernation and can survive off a few villagers a year.



Have to say again how much I love Jay's essays, and I would totally pony up for a book full of them.  (And I'd love to hear some details on the Dreamliner but I imagine he's NDA'd out the APU about that).

I've been aware of that whole "not turning off" aspect of being an engineer.  I hung out around a lot of science geeks when I was younger, and they were constantly running napkin-sketches of random questions that occurred to them as they were walking around.  Of course, they were as likely to calculate the Endor Holocaust as to estimate the Ke of a passing fire engine.

It is akin to the artist's eye.  As a lighting and sound designer for live theater, I spend a lot of my out-of-the-theater time going, "What was that?  What made it sound like that?"  Of course, as an artist, in parallel with looking to see how the sound reflected off a nearby surface, estimating the effects of the wall covering and the size of the standing wave etc., etc., I am also asking, "What did the sound remind me of?  What was its effect on me emotionally?"

But I really like the insight that to the right kind of engineer, the universe is parameterizable.  So it doesn't matter if you are contemplating whether a geared stepper can rotate a metal pane, or how long an unobtanium lever mounted on the Sun would have to be until a single person could move the Earth with it.  You just need sufficient data about the environment.  Then after that, it can all be worked out from first principles.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1135 on: January 25, 2013, 04:48:47 PM »
Have to say again how much I love Jay's essays, and I would totally pony up for a book full of them.

Save your money and read Hentry Petroski instead.  He's got more experience, he's smarter, and he's a better writer than I.

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And I'd love to hear some details on the Dreamliner but I imagine he's NDA'd out the APU about that.

Not especially.  The problems seem to be in the electrical system which I did not contribute to.  If the problem were with the airfoil structural behavior or the flight parameters, then I'd have some personal investment and knowledge.  It's easy to put on the standard engineer's hat and say, "Well, that's not my fault because it's not my department."  And indeed I don't know what's wrong with the batteries and electrical system.  But in the harsh crucible of engineering reality, if you're going to share in the credit for the entire plane, you have to share in the blame for the entire plane.

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It is akin to the artist's eye.  As a lighting and sound designer for live theater, I spend a lot of my out-of-the-theater time going, "What was that?  What made it sound like that?"

I'm glad you were able to find another analogue for that.  I fear what I wrote above sounds elitist.  It's not; it's just the way engineers see the world.  And when you say that artists see the world different, I can relate.  I've seen photographers, lighting directors, and set designers become very attuned to the behavior of light in the mundane, ordinary world.  This is how they know how to create certain effects in the artificial world of the studio and theater.  We become attuned to the world through the way we focus on it, and that gives us different perspectives at different levels of abstraction.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline nomuse

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1136 on: January 25, 2013, 05:15:41 PM »
And that's what freaks me so much about Jack White and others who tell a similar story (as in, professional, working photographers who can't understand what they are seeing in the Apollo surface record).

Well, really, the Big Three have external reasons.  Jack was just, well, Jack.  His incomprehension of the behavior of light is only part of a larger picture.  Kaysing just plain didn't care if what he says was true or not, and Rene outright lies -- he fakes his lighting demonstrations to return the result he wants, and in such a way it makes it obvious he understands how it really works.

I suppose when you get down to it, the endless parade of Apollo Deniers who say, "I'm an experienced photographer, and..." are really no different from the mini-parade of "experienced engineers" we just had here.  Even if they do, actually, have some working experience in photography, even if they do have that photographer's eye for light, they have chosen to turn off the mind in order to argue about Apollo.

Offline gillianren

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1137 on: January 25, 2013, 05:26:21 PM »
OT, but I have a feeling I would LOVE your critiques.  Is there a link you can share?

If you click on that little planet thingie . . . .
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Offline Peter B

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1138 on: January 25, 2013, 06:44:04 PM »
...I've been aware of that whole "not turning off" aspect of being an engineer.  I hung out around a lot of science geeks when I was younger, and they were constantly running napkin-sketches of random questions that occurred to them as they were walking around.  Of course, they were as likely to calculate the Endor Holocaust as to estimate the Ke of a passing fire engine.

It is akin to the artist's eye.  As a lighting and sound designer for live theater, I spend a lot of my out-of-the-theater time going, "What was that?  What made it sound like that?"  Of course, as an artist, in parallel with looking to see how the sound reflected off a nearby surface, estimating the effects of the wall covering and the size of the standing wave etc., etc., I am also asking, "What did the sound remind me of?  What was its effect on me emotionally?"...
I'm noticing the same thing as a parent. Our second son, who's two-and-a-half, is constantly asking "Wot dat?" about all sorts of things, whether a roll of wrapping paper or a bird flying past the window. It's also nice to be able to talk to our older son, who's five (and starting Big School in a week), about things in the world around us. This includes, I'm happy to say, accepting that the Moon is sometimes visible in the sky during the day. (It also includes, which makes us a bit nervous, anatomically correct bodily processes and names; thus he accurately describes the process by which his little sister was born, which is bound to make a few adults blanch.)
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Offline ka9q

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1139 on: January 25, 2013, 08:54:21 PM »
And indeed I don't know what's wrong with the batteries and electrical system.
The NTSB gave a set of talks to the media yesterday, and put a bunch more photos and presentations up on their web site.

Although they didn't explicitly say so, judging from the X-rays and teardown photos of the failed battery it looks to me like a fault developed in a cell separator, leading to an internal short. This is similar to what happened in the Sony-made Apple laptop batteries a few years ago, though the specific mechanism was different (small bits of metal contaminated the Sony batteries and caused the shorts).

Although this would tend to point the finger at Yuasa, the battery manufacturer, things are not necessarily so clear cut. Some other mechanism could be at work, such as repeated ambient pressure cycling distorting the batteries mechanically and leading to the separator failure. The very last thing an accident investigator wants is to jump to a premature and incorrect conclusion. This happened the last time a commercial airliner fleet was grounded: the DC-10 after the Chicago crash in 1979. A senior NTSB official got up and presented a fractured bolt as the cause of the engine separation during takeoff. Had he consulted his metallurgists he would have found that the bolt was only a symptom of the ultimate cause: an incorrect engine removal procedure.

The basic problem with the Li-ion battery chemistry in both the 787 and the Sony batteries is that a) the electrolyte is a flammable organic solvent and b) the cathode (+ terminal) material, lithium cobalt dioxide, releases free oxygen when sufficiently heated. When one cell catches fire, e.g., from an internal short, it heats its neighbors and they too catch fire.

When the 787 battery was specified, LixCoO2 was the only cathode material available. Many other materials have since been introduced, such as LixFePO4, which is substantially less reactive and safer in a fire, albeit with lower energy density. My money is therefore on the FAA banning Li-ion batteries that use LixCoO2 and quickly approving their replacement with alternative cathode materials that are inherently much safer.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 09:09:07 PM by ka9q »