Author Topic: Radiation  (Read 636600 times)

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2160 on: April 19, 2018, 08:11:23 PM »
11.4 rads = 114 mgy.  114 mgy divided by 8.33 days = 13.8 mgy/day.  Not a single apollo lunar mission got anywhere near this dose.  Inquiring minds want to know...How do you like me now?

Offline Allan F

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2161 on: April 19, 2018, 08:26:48 PM »
So if electrons with energy higher than 15 MeV pass right through the hull, what do they do to humans?

Pass right through?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 08:28:22 PM by Allan F »
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline MBDK

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2162 on: April 19, 2018, 08:35:29 PM »
iT is is true but >7 mev electrons are shielded by the hull anyway.  >15 mev electrons populate the outer reaches of the VAB, especially during peak solar activity.  >15 mev electrons are not detectable by a normal radiation detector as they pass right through without depositing enough energy to be detected.  8 gm/c^2 shielding is useless and allows >15 mev electrons to pass right through.

Get your facts straight.  >15 mev electrons are also >7 mev.  Earlier you were concerned with protons, now it's electrons?  Although >15 mev electrons may be in the outer reaches of the VABs, they are NOT the most populous.  What IS their actual ratio/intensity?  If > 15mev electrons pass right through a detector, how would we know they exist? 
"It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

"Laugh-a while you can, monkey-boy." - Lord John Whorfin

Offline MBDK

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2163 on: April 19, 2018, 08:42:51 PM »
2. Given the indicated radiation dosages in Rads/sec for each zone, what will be the dosages that the
astronauts receive in each zone?
 Blue: = 27.6 minutes x ( 60 sec/ 1 minute) x (0.0001 Rads/sec) = 0.17 Rads
 Yellow = 6.1 minutes x 60 sec/minute x 0.005 rads/sec = 1.83 Rads
 Orange = 15.3 minutes x (60 sec/minute) x 0.01 rads/sec = 9.18 Rads
 Green = 3.8 minutes x (60 sec/minute) x 0.001 rads/sec = 0.23 Rads
3. What will be the total radiation dosage in Rads for the transit through the belts?
 0.17 + 1.83 + 9.18 + 0.23 = 11.4 Rads

Recognizing all of this radiation is from high energy protons adds clarity to the deception.  Can you see it now?

I saw the deception a LONG time ago.  You are pretending to know something you obviously do not. 
From: http://article.sapub.org/pdf/10.5923.j.eee.20110102.16.pdf

"Protons with energies of 10 Mev per mm in aluminum shield lose about 9 Mev energy. More than 85 percent of the protons in the space we consider here, are in the energy range 1 - 10 Mev are, so a little more than 1 mm thickness aluminum shield can, stop these protons within itself."
"It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

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Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2164 on: April 19, 2018, 08:50:14 PM »
I'm sorry but I thought you had seen this...

Offline MBDK

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2165 on: April 19, 2018, 09:09:55 PM »
I'm sorry but I thought you had seen this...

Of course I have.  How EXACTLY do you presume that relates?
"It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

"Laugh-a while you can, monkey-boy." - Lord John Whorfin

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2166 on: April 19, 2018, 09:12:00 PM »
I'm sure you are aware this article is about shield design in LEO and the fluxes in high inclination orbit.  I am also sure you are aware that aluminum shielding produces secondary particle radiation and suprathermal proton bremsstrahlung.  If you have any questions so ever about the shielding ability of high energy protons then take a look at the ORION data.  It is eye opening.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2167 on: April 19, 2018, 09:19:55 PM »
iT is is true but >7 mev electrons are shielded by the hull anyway.  >15 mev electrons populate the outer reaches of the VAB, especially during peak solar activity.  >15 mev electrons are not detectable by a normal radiation detector as they pass right through without depositing enough energy to be detected.  8 gm/c^2 shielding is useless and allows >15 mev electrons to pass right through.

Get your facts straight.  >15 mev electrons are also >7 mev.  Earlier you were concerned with protons, now it's electrons?  Although >15 mev electrons may be in the outer reaches of the VABs, they are NOT the most populous.  What IS their actual ratio/intensity?  If > 15mev electrons pass right through a detector, how would we know they exist?
Did I not mention that current detectors are incapable of measuring >15 mev electron flux?  We have no Idea beyond speculation what the flux density is at any point in the VAB but we do know for certain that it increases with solar activity.

Offline MBDK

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2168 on: April 19, 2018, 09:20:40 PM »
I'm sure you are aware this article is about shield design in LEO and the fluxes in high inclination orbit.  I am also sure you are aware that aluminum shielding produces secondary particle radiation and suprathermal proton bremsstrahlung.  If you have any questions so ever about the shielding ability of high energy protons then take a look at the ORION data.  It is eye opening.

You haven't answered my question regarding your graph (which is, of course, meaningless in the context presented).  I know what the article was about.  Since you cannot comprehend that shielding works the same no matter where or how it is used, and hence do not acknowledge the direct correlation, you REALLY have no business discussing the matter until you increase your education by one or more magnitudes.
"It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

"Laugh-a while you can, monkey-boy." - Lord John Whorfin

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2169 on: April 19, 2018, 09:23:02 PM »
So if electrons with energy higher than 15 MeV pass right through the hull, what do they do to humans?

Pass right through?
I imagine the same thing a high speed projectile that passes through the body does.  It blows anything in it's path out of it's way.  We can certainly be sure it is nothing good as if it was we would be showering ing GCR.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2170 on: April 19, 2018, 09:27:22 PM »
When positive ions collide with high density materials, they split and produce
many secondary particles, consequently to stop the
secondary particles more thickness material is required[9].
As the light materials weaken the protons better, using these
materials reduce the danger of secondary particles production.
According to their low density, more volume of this
material is required and against heavy materials, these materials
don’t weaken the electrons and photons well. Using
thick shields have some problems like, producing secondary
dangerous materials as neutrons and gamma ray when radiation
encounters to flake materials. Choosing useful material
as a flake can reduce it too much. Less atomic constructions
produce less secondary radiation (especially less
neutrons)[9]. Therefore, to achieve the ideal shield, multilayered
shield consist of layers with high and low density is
suitable. The optimal thickness of each light and heavy layers,
and the material, their arrangement can be optimized
depending on the radiation environment and their arrangement
also influence on dose near electronic device, sensitive
to radiation. High density shield materials (such as tungsten
and tantalum) and low density materials (such as polyethylene)
can be considered as an ideal shield[4,10]. Also, materials
such as boron 10 (B¹º), liquid hydrogen, lead enriched
plastics with oxygen are named as a shield. A parameter to
calculate the shield layer is stopping power and then reducing
its devastating effects on semiconductors, devices and
electronic equipments. The concept of stopping power is so
useful, reducing the linear energy and is defined as fol

Offline Allan F

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2171 on: April 19, 2018, 09:31:30 PM »
So if electrons with energy higher than 15 MeV pass right through the hull, what do they do to humans?

Pass right through?
I imagine the same thing a high speed projectile that passes through the body does.  It blows anything in it's path out of it's way.  We can certainly be sure it is nothing good as if it was we would be showering ing GCR.

Two options: 1): It passes right through the human body without depositing any energy there. That means it does not interact with the human body. Therefore it does zero damage. A bullet passing through the human body DOES deposit energy while passing through. Therefore it does damage.

2): It deposits some or all of its energy in the human body, and therefore does SOME damage. But the damage is proportional to the FLUX of the particle. Not just the existence of the particle.

Edited to add: Bob Braeunig had a large section on his radiation page, where he calculated the secondary radiation. In short, the wavelengths produced did not penetrate to the cabin.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 09:33:03 PM by Allan F »
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline MBDK

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2172 on: April 19, 2018, 09:31:53 PM »
t mention that current detectors are incapable of measuring >15 mev electron flux?  We have no Idea beyond speculation what the flux density is at any point in the VAB but we do know for certain that it increases with solar activity.

Well, YOU have no idea, anyway.?  Do you know what a TeV is?  Hint:  It's a LOT more than 15 mev.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/11/171103105810.htm

Now either admit the graph you posted was inconsequential regarding how many protons >10meV, or posit an alternative reason you decided to flop it up there.  I will not respond to you again until you address this point, as you are shotgunning the subject...again (and will consider notifying the moderator if you do not reply directly to this "error(?)". 
"It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

"Laugh-a while you can, monkey-boy." - Lord John Whorfin

Offline nomuse

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2173 on: April 19, 2018, 09:32:01 PM »
So if electrons with energy higher than 15 MeV pass right through the hull, what do they do to humans?

Pass right through?
I imagine the same thing a high speed projectile that passes through the body does.  It blows anything in it's path out of it's way.  We can certainly be sure it is nothing good as if it was we would be showering ing GCR.

Neutrinos pass through most detectors as well...

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2174 on: April 19, 2018, 09:32:05 PM »
What the previous paragraph from the article you referenced is telling you that using a aluminum shield is highly ineffective because it not only is transparent to higher energy protons it slows down protons that would have passed right through the vessel and making then in a lower more deadly proton.  The secondary emission from aluminum are a greater risk than the protons that caused them.  Aluminum alone is not the shield of choice for high energy protons and if it were d0 you think GCR would be a concern?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 10:43:50 PM by timfinch »