Author Topic: Radiation  (Read 636816 times)

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2460 on: April 21, 2018, 12:46:41 AM »
A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA...

Please describe what a polar orbit is.
the orbit would be perpendicular to the equator.

Offline Allan F

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2461 on: April 21, 2018, 12:48:30 AM »
A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA...

Please describe what a polar orbit is.
the orbit would be perpendicular to the equator.

Which would mean it would pass over EVERY part of the Earth - including the SAA.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2462 on: April 21, 2018, 12:48:53 AM »
Step away from this thread for a week and abandon all hope of catching up.

I don't know if anyone's already posted this (most likely yes), but I went to the CRaTER web page and read up on the instrument's description:

Quote
CRaTER consists of six silicon detectors in thin/thick pairs separated by sections of Tissue Equivalent Plastic (TEP). The Tissue Equivalent Plastic (such as A-150 manufactured by Standard Imaging) simulates soft body tissue (muscle) and has been used for both ground-based as well as space-based (i.e. Space Station) experiments.

The thin detectors (140 μm) are optimized for high energy deposits and the thick detectors (1000 μm) are optimized for low energy deposits, in particular, for protons. In nominal operating mode, an event is triggered when the energy deposit in any single detector rises above its threshold energy. A measurement is then made of the energy deposit in all six detectors. Directional information can be inferred for events that deposit energy into more than one detector (detection coincidences). Endcaps shield the detectors from protons with less than ~13MeV. Extra mass placed around the edges of the detectors provides additional shielding from some particles which may be able to penetrate through the sides of the instrument.

Go to the web page for a proper diagram of the instrument, but here's some quick-n-dirty ASCII art:


============ --- Deep Space (Zenith) Shield
|||||||||||| --- D1 (148 μm)
++++++++++++ --- D2 (1 mm)
############ --- A150 Tissue Equivalent Plastic (54 mm)
|||||||||||| --- D3 (149 μm)
++++++++++++ --- D4 (1 mm)
############ --- A150 Tissue Equivalent Plastic (27 mm)
|||||||||||| --- D5 (149 μm)
++++++++++++ --- D6 (1 mm)
============ --- Lunar Surface (Nadir) Shield


So, several things that are obvious right off the bat:

  • This is why you have combined readings for D1 & D2, D3 & D4, D5 & D6.  Each pair is at the same depth of "tissue", each sensor of the pair is optimized for different energies.
  • This is why you don't sum up readings from all 6 detectors, because each pair is measuring energies at different "tissue" depths.  D1 & D2 give the "skin" dose, D5 & D6 give the "deep tissue" dose.
  • As per the description, an event is recorded when the energy deposited in a single detector rises above its threshold energy.  Raw events are measured in keV/μm. Obviously, during analysis, these measurements are fed into a mathematical model that spits results out in cGy/day.

One particularly amusing aspect of Tim's confusion (=coughtrollerycough=) is the idea that, because the measurements are reported in cGy/day, that you must sum all the measurements taken on the same day to get the proper cGy/day amount. 

cGy/day is a rate, not a total.  It's the rate of energy absorption at the time the measurement was taken, and that rate can change from one measurement to the next.  It's like saying that if I measure my speed while driving once every couple of minutes and I get 30 mph, 50 mph, 25 mph, and 60 mph, then I really must be going 165 mph.
I love planting a seed and watching it sprout.  You now understand the data reflects multiple snapshots taken during the day and to provide a truly comprehensive picture one must collate those snapshots into a single daily dose .  Good!  the force is flowing through you Luke (JFB).  Let it flow.  You are on the right track.
Are you sure D5 & D6 do not measure radiation from the moon and not from cislunar space?  I am asking for a friend.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2463 on: April 21, 2018, 12:51:05 AM »
A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA...

Please describe what a polar orbit is.
the orbit would be perpendicular to the equator.

Which would mean it would pass over EVERY part of the Earth - including the SAA.
Visualize.    Both equatorial orbits and polar orbits would never cross the South Atlantic Anomaly

Offline Allan F

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2464 on: April 21, 2018, 12:55:47 AM »
So going in an orbit from pole to pole wouldn't cross the SAA?
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Allan F

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2465 on: April 21, 2018, 12:58:26 AM »
http://apollo.lsc.vsc.edu/classes/remote/lecture_notes/satellite/platforms/poe_scan_strat.html

This is the ground track of a polar orbit. Does it not cross the SAA?
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2466 on: April 21, 2018, 12:59:37 AM »
So going in an orbit from pole to pole wouldn't cross the SAA?

Maybe I was wrong.  Looking at this illustration it wold run right down the middle of it.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2467 on: April 21, 2018, 01:03:41 AM »
Which is confusing because that illustration indicates an equatorial orbit would also pass right through it and we know that isn't true.  I need to reconsider my position.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2468 on: April 21, 2018, 01:08:47 AM »
I stand corrected.  a polar orbit will pass through the SAA.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2469 on: April 21, 2018, 01:09:32 AM »
So going in an orbit from pole to pole wouldn't cross the SAA?

Maybe I was wrong.  Looking at this illustration it wold run right down the middle of it.

Hmm... if you were wrong about that... do you think it's possible you were wrong about some of the other things you have believed?
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2470 on: April 21, 2018, 01:14:24 AM »
So going in an orbit from pole to pole wouldn't cross the SAA?

Maybe I was wrong.  Looking at this illustration it wold run right down the middle of it.

Hmm... if you were wrong about that... do you think it's possible you were wrong about some of the other things you have believed?
I am human and as such the possibility always exist that I may have have had lapses in judgement.  I am honest and a man of integrity.  If it can be demonstrated that I have erred and I can understand the error then I will own it and change my position.  I am flexible like that.  Integrity demands nothing less.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2471 on: April 21, 2018, 01:23:48 AM »
So to recap.  This is an accurate 2d representation of both the Orion EFT and the Apollo path into the VAB.  We don't have to debate this point any longer.  Right?

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2472 on: April 21, 2018, 01:27:22 AM »


Hmm... if you were wrong about that... do you think it's possible you were wrong about some of the other things you have believed?
I am human and as such the possibility always exist that I may have have had lapses in judgement.  I am honest and a man of integrity.  If it can be demonstrated that I have erred and I can understand the error then I will own it and change my position.  I am flexible like that.  Integrity demands nothing less.

The thing is, most rational people will recognize that they are likely the one that is wrong when all of the world's experts disagree with them about something.

People like you, on the other hand, arrogantly believe that they are right even when people with decades more experience disagree.

You are wrong. The facts... and simple logic... do not support the hoax theory. You just need to accept that.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2473 on: April 21, 2018, 01:36:24 AM »


Hmm... if you were wrong about that... do you think it's possible you were wrong about some of the other things you have believed?
I am human and as such the possibility always exist that I may have have had lapses in judgement.  I am honest and a man of integrity.  If it can be demonstrated that I have erred and I can understand the error then I will own it and change my position.  I am flexible like that.  Integrity demands nothing less.

The thing is, most rational people will recognize that they are likely the one that is wrong when all of the world's experts disagree with them about something.

People like you, on the other hand, arrogantly believe that they are right even when people with decades more experience disagree.

You are wrong. The facts... and simple logic... do not support the hoax theory. You just need to accept that.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."

I have repeatedly stated that I am uninterested in promoting  or disproving a hoax theory.  My goal is singular.  I  intend to prove that the reported mission dose of Apollo 11 is unrealistic.  As a consequence of that goal if it can be deduced the existence of a hoax exist then consider it collateral damage.  That is not my intent.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2474 on: April 21, 2018, 01:51:50 AM »
"Because I said so" is the resort most often used when you have exhausted all reasonable attempts to explain something to someone who is simply incapable of, or refusing to, accept rational argument and explanation of the facts. It was not the starting point used by anyone here. It is pretty much the standpoint you have employed from the start and its use is entirely inappropriate given your lack of understanding of the things you are trying to examine.

The facts are that Apollo went to the moon. Every piece of evidence supports that. You have absolutely nothing that contradicts it no matter how many times you claim you do. All you have is a small collection of numbers collected from dosimeters worn next to the skin inside a structure that (regardless of whether you believe this) will intercept radiation. The numbers you report are adjusted from the original raw figures, which are higher. If you put some effort in you might even find those numbers.

You do not have adequate data on which to draw the unreasonably firm conclusions that you espouse, and your claim that it invalidates everything else in the Apollo record is incorrect. You need to look at the point you actually make yourself: there is an overwhelming amount of verifiable evidence supporting Apollo, how can it be possible if you are correct? You might just have to grasp the reality that you are wrong.

China, India and Japan have all taken images at the Apollo sites showing human activity. Not hardware, not physical objects, but the activity around them. Your a priori conclusions based on faulty assumptions cannot explain that.