Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 425277 times)

Offline Jeff Raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1845 on: January 07, 2021, 01:48:27 AM »
If impeachment is started whilst still holding the office of President (to hostage), can proceedings continue after he has left office? So they CAN prevent him running in 2024?

The sole result of impeachment conviction is removal from office. To the best of my knowledge that doesn't preclude running for president again, though that's obviously never been an issue under consideration before.

Article 1, Section 3, Clause 7:

"Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."

Therefore the prevention of holding another office is a possible penalty from conviction.

Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1846 on: January 07, 2021, 01:52:20 AM »
If impeachment is started whilst still holding the office of President (to hostage), can proceedings continue after he has left office? So they CAN prevent him running in 2024?

The sole result of impeachment conviction is removal from office. To the best of my knowledge that doesn't preclude running for president again, though that's obviously never been an issue under consideration before.

I get the impression there's more to it:

Quote
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States
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Offline raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1847 on: January 07, 2021, 01:53:09 AM »

Quick pic I did in 'honour' of today and the Cheetos-in-Chief's response.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1848 on: January 07, 2021, 04:03:29 AM »
Where were the police? Why was there only a handful of uniforms on the steps that were brushed aside? Why were the police allowing selfies of themselves with insurrectionists?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1346920198461419520

If this was an armed mob of black people would the response be the same? Can you imagine if the pictures were of a swarm of Muslims dressed in black and chanting slogans? They'd be dragging bodies out for days...
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1849 on: January 07, 2021, 04:49:27 AM »
Where were the police?

Well, there was 3 of them manning this barricade......

https://twitter.com/i/status/1347019319566340101
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline VQ

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1850 on: January 07, 2021, 01:25:12 PM »
Article 1, Section 3, Clause 7:

"Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."

Therefore the prevention of holding another office is a possible penalty from conviction.

TIL; thanks for the info!

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1851 on: January 07, 2021, 05:07:49 PM »
Where were the police?

Well, there was 3 of them manning this barricade......

This is attracting quite a bit of attention.  Some are saying that since the perimeter had already been breached, the police decided to try to de-escalate.  I'm not buying it, as the officer clearly opens the barricade for them.  This could be easily interpreted as an invitation.  It's one thing to de-escalate by avoiding confrontation.  An open invitation is another.

I was shown a tweet that explained others' concern:  "You don't ask where Miley [Cyrus] is when Hannah [Montana] is on stage."  As I said months ago when describing the racial tension over the summer, the problem is that the police are a big part of the problem.  Which is to say, not the police departments and their leaders generally, but the police unions.  And as the media has told us, these have been infiltrated widely by white supremacists.  Police unions wield most of the actual power in police organizations when it comes to conduct and discipline of officers.  Given that some of the officers are alleged to have posed for photographs with the insurgents, I think the better interpretation is that we need to overhaul the Capitol Police.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1852 on: January 07, 2021, 11:10:18 PM »
Well, Trump's conceded, in a manner of speaking, though he still claims he won.  ::)
https://www.npr.org/2021/01/07/954234902/congress-certifies-biden-victory-after-pro-trump-rioters-storm-the-capitol?fbclid=IwAR2JdEfxb_jSs406UD2YKNGszFn4UnQyaB5NYjDMmG2DRbQuWDU76EWEPGI
I could still see something happening at the inauguration though, if not sooner.

Offline Jeff Raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1853 on: January 08, 2021, 12:42:27 AM »
Article 1, Section 3, Clause 7:

"Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."

Therefore the prevention of holding another office is a possible penalty from conviction.

TIL; thanks for the info!

You're welcome.  Full disclosure: I didn't know about this either until I read an article about it about a week ago (I think?), where they were talking about using impeachment specifically to block a 2024 run by Trump. If I hadn't seen that, I wouldn't have known about the second penalty option either.

Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1854 on: January 08, 2021, 12:58:08 AM »
Reading an update on the Australian ABC talks about some of the people who stormed the Capitol had zip ties and weapons, and were specifically intent on overthrowing the government. Does anyone know anything about this?

All I saw in the various videos was (a) mostly people milling around like yokels, and (b) a smaller number of people who seemed intent on vandalism and looting but nothing more. Was there a group (c) mixed in with them?
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Offline raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1855 on: January 08, 2021, 03:15:48 AM »
I'm not surprised if many of them had weapons, whether they truly intended to use them or not. Zip ties though . . . you only bring those if you intend to take prisoners, hostages.
This beautifully written Rolling Stones article also mentions the zip ties, though it doesn't mention a source, alas.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1856 on: January 08, 2021, 03:31:50 AM »
I'm not surprised if many of them had weapons, whether they truly intended to use them or not. Zip ties though . . . you only bring those if you intend to take prisoners, hostages.
This beautifully written Rolling Stones article also mentions the zip ties, though it doesn't mention a source, alas.



One of the images of a terrorist carrying ziptie handcuffs.
A gallows was erected outside the Capitol building.
There were (according to a NYT article) multiple discussion on Gab and Parler going back weeks where Far Right groups were asking for the home addresses of judges and Congress people.

Most of the insurrectionists looked like your typical Trump headbanger but there was a substantial segment that were planning atrocities and were geared up for action.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1857 on: January 08, 2021, 04:28:15 AM »


Heres another image of that mentally ill lone wolf patriot terrorist carrying plastic handcuffs:



The gallows that was erected outside the Capitol:


You don't turn up in combat gear and bullet-proof vests carrying a baseball bat if you're not expecting violence:


These people had prepared for violence and I am thankful that the security staff managed to secure the people doing their jobs in Congress before the mob got their hands on them. I saw one livestream from the invaders where someone was shouting that he wasn't going to be satisfied with Pelosi's hair, he wanted her head.

In my mind there is no doubt that this was an attempted coup, based on the evidence that the Capitol was invaded to prevent the process which declared Trump's successor from proceeding. This attempt didn't succeed, mainly because (as the last four years have shown) Trump hasn't the ability to plan one successfully. The next Republican attempt will be smarter and better prepared.

Here's a small warning from history. Some years ago the British National Party managed to get some people elected to council seats. Their leader, Nick Griffin, was hosted on a political debate show on TV. He was rapidly exposed as little more than a back street fascist espousing deplorable beliefs:


A couple of years later a smarter, better dressed, more eloquent snake-in-a-suit turned up. He had absorbed a huge amout of the BNP supporters and other nationalistic scum, as well as not only infiltrating the Tory party but actually threatening to form a split. Same ideals as the BNP, just better dressed and a lot more clever about how he used dog-whistle politics without implicating himself as a far-right extremist. This is that man in discussions with Steve Bannon:




Wind forward to today and we have a nationalistic Prime Minister who's totally incapable of fulfilling that role. A PM who brazenly announced that he was intending to break international law by reversing an agreement that he signed only a few months earlier. We are outside the EU. We have inflicted enormous damage on our country, politically, economically and to our standing on the world stage.

The coup attempt and the Trump presidency is nothing more than a trial run. The next version will be much better prepared. And the US, like the UK, will probably vote those people into power and vote their democracy-destroying  into law.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 06:14:07 AM by Zakalwe »
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1858 on: January 08, 2021, 06:01:50 AM »
Where were the police?

Well, there was 3 of them manning this barricade......

This is attracting quite a bit of attention.  Some are saying that since the perimeter had already been breached, the police decided to try to de-escalate.  I'm not buying it, as the officer clearly opens the barricade for them.  This could be easily interpreted as an invitation.  It's one thing to de-escalate by avoiding confrontation.  An open invitation is another.

I was shown a tweet that explained others' concern:  "You don't ask where Miley [Cyrus] is when Hannah [Montana] is on stage."  As I said months ago when describing the racial tension over the summer, the problem is that the police are a big part of the problem.  Which is to say, not the police departments and their leaders generally, but the police unions.  And as the media has told us, these have been infiltrated widely by white supremacists.  Police unions wield most of the actual power in police organizations when it comes to conduct and discipline of officers.  Given that some of the officers are alleged to have posed for photographs with the insurgents, I think the better interpretation is that we need to overhaul the Capitol Police.

I've seen that "de-escalating" argument being used before. The NYT reported that a cop directed some of the seditionists to Chuck Schumer's office. How is that "de-escalating". Also, I didn't see much in the way of "de-escalating" in relation to George Floyd and many, many others. It's a horrific thought to have to contemplate that the protectors may be supporters of what happened.

I also see that the head of the Capitol police force has resigned. That's a start.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1859 on: January 08, 2021, 10:22:43 AM »
Yes, I find it very hard to believe the de-escalation argument.  There's simply too much evidence of complicity.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams