Author Topic: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.  (Read 209293 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #195 on: June 18, 2012, 09:30:12 PM »
You are especially likely to see sharp lines between the 8x8 squares, an artifact often called blocking.

All true, but keep in mind that this isn't apparent to most observers.  The quantization errors, depending on quality setting, produce only small differences in apparent value between adjacent zones.  The random, inept fiddling with Photoshop sliders that passes for "photo analysis" among conspiracy theorists usually results in selective contrast expansion, amplifying what the JPEG engineers intended to remain very small and largely unnoticeable.  And this is invariably attributed to some unspecified doctoring, simply because the faux-tographic analyst has no understanding of the underlying processes.

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With JPG this is especially common near and around sharp edges of objects -- just like the edge of Neil Armstrong's bright white suit and the black sky behind him.

That's because JPEG engineers intended the process to apply to real-world photographs, in which there wasn't expected to be much high-frequency high-amplitude variance in any of the channels.  The black background, in order to faithfully reproduce the space suit in the same zone, has to allow some dark gray pixels where the source pixels were uniformly black.  If that zone is next to one of entirely black pixels, the contrast expansion will reveal a sharp boundary between the all-black zone and the black-and-dark-gray portions of the adjoining zone.

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So what you are seeing here are nothing more than normal, expected JPG compression artifacts.

I'm always obliged to point out that JPEG, JFIF, and DCT are different things.  JPEG is the family of compression and representation techniques.  JFIF is the file format, what we call "a JPEG file."  DCT is one of the many compression algorithms available to JPEG encoders.  Not all JPEG compressions are lossy.  However, so many people prefer the small file size that nearly every JPEG-encoded image is compressed using lossy DCT.

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But the files would be huge, which is why the generally available versions of these pictures have all been JPG compressed.

To those of us who have worked with image compression, transmission, and analysis for something like 20 years, and have seen thousands of these artifacts (literally), people who say they're some kind of sinister plot to suppress the truth sound literally like someone saying cars are really monsters that eat children.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #196 on: June 18, 2012, 09:33:59 PM »
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moonmissions gave them a chance to make pictures without atmospheric aberation, although, they could have  done it from low-earth orbit. Since they didn`t have adaptive optics then, they could used advantage of lack of atmosphere.

It had already been done.  Long-exposure photographs of stars from space had already been taken on earlier missions.  Future-Apollo astronaut Mike Collins on Gemini X, future-Apollo astronaut Dick Gordon on Gemini XI and future-Apollo astronaut Buzz Aldrin on Gemini XII all took these images during their EVAs while over the night side of Earth.  Source

Going to the Moon was about studying the Moon.  They didn't need to waste time repeating stuff that had been done elsewhere.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #197 on: June 18, 2012, 10:51:10 PM »
Stars- moonmissions gave them a chance to make pictures without atmospheric aberation

Since the Apollo spacecraft had very little room for storage what kind of telescope do you think they could have brought with them? Certainly nothing that could compete with a large Earth-based telescope. So what would be the point? Besides, the American taxpayers paid for the astronauts to explore the Moon, not take pictures of tiny points of light in the sky that look the same from Earth anyway.

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they could used advantage of lack of atmosphere.

They would be trading the resolving power of the large Earth-based telescopes for small telescopes that would fit inside the CM. Any advantage gained by being outside of the atmosphere would be lost.

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I can`t fathom Apollo missions.  Even if it means for you that I am ignorant fool. So be it.

If I had a dime for every hoax believer that was proud of their ignorance...
 
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I sense, that it might be that some former astronaut is even here in these forums

That would be fantastic... but I doubt it.

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I also have this feeling that most of you work for government institutions or formerly did,

I've never worked for any government, certainly not an American government.

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hence the reservedness about 9/11 simple yes/no answers.

My objection to your 9/11 comments is that it is off topic in this section of the forum, and also that you seem to think that if we disagree with your beliefs on the subject then we must not have researched it. Consider this possibility: we disagree with your beliefs on the subject because we have researched it.

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-And Emma, I didn`t break any rules on that forum, as I posted the moonhoax ideas in off-topic section.

I don't know how that forum works, but if it's anything like this one then posting something off-topic is a violation of the rules.

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Another question, when do Americans plan to drop RD-180 in favour of their own design?

He's some advice for you, simpleboy. If you don't like having everyone swamp you with questions then stop starting new irrelevant lines of discussion and focus on the ones that are actually relevant to the subject of the forum.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline SolusLupus

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #198 on: June 18, 2012, 10:59:36 PM »
Here's another comment on the whole "why didn't they just take photos?" thing:  That would be the deal of probes and specialized satellites.  They were interested in the moon.  You have to specialize on these missions; you only go for generalization when you have plenty of room and don't plan on returning for a very long time.
“Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love.” -- Kahlil Gibran

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Offline DataCable

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #199 on: June 18, 2012, 11:00:32 PM »
1. Relevance of stars  in photography. If the moon missions were real, they wouldn`t bother about stars, the stars would be simply all over the pictures.
Question posed yesterday, please answer:

What is the minimum exposure time required to image Sirius on Ektachrome EF film at f/2.8?


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The problem is that you can`t pretend to fly to the moon on monday, and present starfield that was photographed a month ago, because position of the sun in the photographs and the consequent shadows would change as well.
So what if I were to show you nine photos taken from the surface of the moon showing Venus in exactly the position relative to the earth it should be for the time they were taken?

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2. Photographing stars. One could assume that the surface albedo is enough to enlighten the spacecraft and astronauts even if the sun is right behind them.
Surface albedo of the moon has absolutely nothing to do with photographing stars.


Stars- moonmissions gave them a chance to make pictures without atmospheric aberation
Y'know what wavelength of light Earth's atmosphere is really good at blocking?  UV.  Y'know what wavelength the Schmidt camera taken to the moon on Apollo 16 operated in?
Bearer of the highly coveted "I Found Venus In 9 Apollo Photos" sweatsocks.

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Offline peter eldergill

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #200 on: June 18, 2012, 11:12:57 PM »
What arrogance to assume that every poster on the internet is American, and hence is an American government shill. Now perhaps a Canadian government shill, like Lunar Orbit, is up to no good whist eating his Tally Ho double beef basket, but then those Canadians.......

BTW Gillian, I for one read your posts, even if others don't :)

Pete

Offline gillianren

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #201 on: June 18, 2012, 11:27:23 PM »
Thanks, Pete.  I'm perfectly aware I'm not a scientist, but Apollo conspiracism doesn't just fall down on scientific grounds.  Unfortunately, all the documents were written in either Science or Bureaucracy, so my grammar skills are of no use.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #202 on: June 18, 2012, 11:30:23 PM »
Lunar Orbit, is up to no good whist eating his Tally Ho double beef basket

Ooooo... now I know what I'm having for dinner tomorrow. :)

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BTW Gillian, I for one read your posts, even if others don't :)

I read Gillianren's posts, that's how I learned to spell.

I hope no one thinks that I'm ignoring them because I haven't responded to their posts or moderation reports. I'll often read them while I'm at work and intend to reply when I get home, but I'm sometimes forgetful about such things. And admittedly I'll also sometimes just skim through threads and miss things.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #203 on: June 18, 2012, 11:32:16 PM »
What is the minimum exposure time required to image Sirius on Ektachrome EF film at f/2.8?

Just FYI, the Biogon lenses on the EVA cameras would only open to f/5.6.

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So what if I were to show you nine photos taken from the surface of the moon showing Venus in exactly the position relative to the earth it should be for the time they were taken?

Gee, that would be pretty cool!  ;D  Especially since the image of Venus was only recently discovered in them.  By one of my good friends.   ::)
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #204 on: June 18, 2012, 11:33:12 PM »
Thanks, Pete.  I'm perfectly aware I'm not a scientist...

That's what makes your opinion so valuable around here.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline SolusLupus

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #205 on: June 18, 2012, 11:33:38 PM »
My Atom.  JayUtah used smileys.
“Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love.” -- Kahlil Gibran

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Offline Glom

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #206 on: June 18, 2012, 11:40:43 PM »
Regarding the lament for American aerospace, if you're Latvian, why would you care so much that Joe F American gets the job building the rocket rather than Yuri P Russi?

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #207 on: June 18, 2012, 11:45:07 PM »
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So what if I were to show you nine photos taken from the surface of the moon showing Venus in exactly the position relative to the earth it should be for the time they were taken?

Gee, that would be pretty cool!  ;D  Especially since the image of Venus was only recently discovered in them.  By one of my good friends.   ::)

From the old forum:
Missing planetoid, discovered by DataCable on April 19, 2007. :)
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #208 on: June 19, 2012, 12:50:52 AM »
Ah, yes, probably my favorite hb beatdown.

Good times, good times.
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Offline scooter

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #209 on: June 19, 2012, 01:23:16 AM »
This thread has become an excellent example of a debate between one who "believes" vs a number of people who "know".

Sure, when looked at superficially, which is the lens that advancedboy uses, Apollo seems unbelievable. The technical acheivements seem miraculous, impossible. But when looked at from a technical and systems engineering viewpoint, it was "just" a very big exercise in mission design and systems engineering. Enormous problems to solve, often with real outside-the-box thinking.

Meanwhile, for advancedboy...you probably feel you are being treated harshly and abruptly by those here. Fact is, you have denigrated the reputations of many thousands of people who literally put their lives into the Apollo program. Defaming these great people is bad enough, but doing so from your admitted standpoint of ignorant incredulity is unforgivable. You don't understand the science, you don't even understand the evidence. The science behind the program does exist, and it's what many folks do routinely on a daily basis. There are mountains of evidence available. Their impersonal responses to your ignorant incredulity are simply that...you simply have no clue of the subject you are attempting to discuss, and they are letting you know that. That you cannot "believe" that it happened carries exactly no weight at all. Apollo is not a question of believing.

Your "photographic evidence" has been shredded by real experts in the field here. Everything else you've come up with was mere handwaving. Do you have anything new to offer?