Author Topic: New Flag-Waving Clip  (Read 13379 times)

Offline AstroBrant

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New Flag-Waving Clip
« on: March 27, 2016, 08:44:27 PM »
As most of you know, there has been much speculation about what causes the flag to swing a little bit in the video from Apollo 15, when Dave walks between the rover camera and the flag. Some have suggested that he touched it, but I have been skeptical of that.

Recently, someone pointed out to me another place where a flag does this. Watch the clip of the Apollo 16 jump salute. After Charlie's salute, just as he is turning around, it can be seen swinging like in the Apollo 15 clip. I watched Mark Grey's high quality video, which eliminates some of the glitchy video movement of objects.


No one was walking past the flag at that point, so no previously proposed explanations would apply: touching it, static electricity, or kicked dust. Of course, the hoax claim of an air wake from a passing astronaut couldn't apply, either.

Of all the hoax claims, this is the only one which seems to be an enigma. Obviously there is an explanation, but darned if I can guess what it is. There is always the possibility that some video artifact caused this, but I've studied this for over a couple of hours and I see nothing else seeming to move that way.

I wonder if this may be a continuation of that charged regolith "fountain," which at this time of lunar day may be so diffuse as to be undetectable. Perhaps one regolith particle could cause this much movement. It would require extremely little force. Disturbing the soil may trigger a greater flux of discharged particles.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2016, 11:37:58 PM »
Maybe he shook the ground by jumping?

Offline AstroBrant

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2016, 01:27:58 AM »
Maybe he shook the ground by jumping?

It started too long after the jump. This swinging began after Charlie's salute.
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Offline ChrLz

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2016, 02:42:09 AM »
Is it definitely real movement?  The camera is seeing widely varying light levels from the astronaut's suit as he turns - could the effect simply be a 'blooming' effect, where the scan lines are 'pushed' very slightly to the right by overexposure at left?  If it was movement, then it seems odd that it seems to stop with no repeat cycles - in air that would seem a little odd, but in a vacuum it should take longer for the fabric's damping to kick in..

I admit I only took a short look, so it's just a thought..

Offline Count Zero

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2016, 02:57:51 AM »
I see the motion, and note that it seems to start as Charlie turns to face the camera.  As usual, you can see that the lunar soil - which is fine enough to leave crisp, clear boot-prints - does not billow at all, but does go a long way when kicked by minor foot motions.  This proves that this video was made in vacuum under low gravity, i.e. the lunar surface.

The flag's motion is very small.  Perhaps the regolith, kicked-up when Charlie turned, hit the flagpole and caused the vibration?
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2016, 03:38:25 AM »
I've always felt that this is a result of sympathetic vibrations up the flagpole. Has anyone ever tried to replicate that effect?

Offline smartcooky

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2016, 08:18:33 AM »
Its a video artefact IMO. It looks like the flag shortens and then lengthens and then shortens again. To me this appear some kind of timebase distortion. Remember this will have originally been an analog video signal converted to digital, and it requires timebase correction during the conversion. There are very often errors when the conversion is made.

Try the following

1. Cue up the video from the point where Astrobrant had it cued to and then pause the video

2. Set the video to fullscreen

3. Now have a look to the right of the more distant astronaut and about level with his boots, you should see three dark spots on the lunar surface (the astronaut appears to be about half way between these spots and the bottom of the flagpole). Make a mental note of where these three spots are.

4. Start the video and as soon as you see the flag start to move, quickly look down at those three spots...you will see them moving too, left and right.

I am sure this is a video artefact caused by some sort of timebase distortion on the video signal. I see a similar things when watching an NTSC DVD on a PAL TV... small objects in the background which should be stationary often appear to sway left and right.
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2016, 09:09:21 AM »
Here's a few frames showing the flag apparently moving:



it does seem like the apparent movement is from changes in colour on screen!

Offline bknight

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2016, 12:33:48 PM »
The only apparent movement I see is way after the salute, when John is approaching the flag, with "flashes" of white off of John's suit.
IMO, it is just an artifact of the camera, with its spinning wheel, catching up and no movement of the flag.
Just my two cents.
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Offline bknight

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2016, 01:24:25 PM »
As most of you know, there has been much speculation about what causes the flag to swing a little bit in the video from Apollo 15, when Dave walks between the rover camera and the flag. Some have suggested that he touched it, but I have been skeptical of that.

I am not skeptical of that explanation, the wide angle lens would necessarily make Dave much closer to the camera than the flag.  So much difference that possible hand/arm contact was definitely a possibility, barring that the closeness may have caused a static electric interference.  Since the movement, regardless of the initiator continued long after Dave has passed out of focal range of the camera proving that the movement could have only exist in a near zero atmosphere.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2016, 02:09:19 PM »
Here's a few frames showing the flag apparently moving:



it does seem like the apparent movement is from changes in colour on screen!


And look at the bottom part of the flag pole on your gif; it appears to move left-right

IMO, this confirms its a video artefact
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Offline 12oh2alarm

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2016, 02:39:46 PM »
I'm musing about other effects that could make a flag move.

We know that the PLSS uses sublimation of water ice into the vacuum to cool the astronauts.
Could this, in theory, produce enough of a thin gas escaping at high velocity, that moves the
flag when it impinges on the relatively large and light fabric? E.g. when the astronaut turns
just the right way? I imagine the PLSS similar to a lawn sprinkler spraying gas...

Could a micrometeorite cause noticeable flag movement?
I suspect the flux (and thus probability) is quite low, but we need only one event :-)

Offline bknight

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2016, 03:22:33 PM »

it does seem like the apparent movement is from changes in colour on screen!


And look at the bottom part of the flag pole on your gif; it appears to move left-right

IMO, this confirms its a video artefact
What?  You mean flag poles don't move in winds?  Surely you jest. ::)
EDIT: Removed double ending quote.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 04:43:24 PM by bknight »
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Offline dwight

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2016, 04:37:37 PM »
That looks undoubtedly like a video artefact to me. Such wavering of the image can also be on the Apollo 11 tv feed once the astros are back in the LM. The hoaxers will no doubt cry "foul" simply because they never had experience with such problems on video before. Given one of them thinks a kinescope is actually 2" tape I hold absolutely no hope at all for them.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: New Flag-Waving Clip
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2016, 05:14:09 AM »
The hoaxers will no doubt cry "foul" simply because they never had experience with such problems on video before. Given one of them thinks a kinescope is actually 2" tape I hold absolutely no hope at all for them.

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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.