Author Topic: What is the logical fallacy?  (Read 6401 times)

Offline Count Zero

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What is the logical fallacy?
« on: January 29, 2016, 06:24:55 PM »
Very often I see fallacious comments somewhere, but when I look through various online lists of logical fallacies I cannot quite place which one (or more) applies.  I'd like this thread to be a sort of "Dear Abby" for help on this.

For example, here is a recent gem from ATS:
Quote
The US government has been known to lie. NASA is part of the government. Governments engage in propaganda. Therefore, NASA, as an extension of the government, is capable of lying about it's doings. On the other hand, you've suggested NASA is not lying because...why?

This post is particularly egregious because this knuckle-dragging imbicile individual is accusing others of logical fallacies.  Link  Not that I would be petty enough to want to hoist him with his own petard; oh no, not me...

LO, I'm not sure if you want this thread in the Hoax Forum.  I thought it might be easier to find here.  Move it where you think is best.
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Offline raven

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2016, 10:34:04 PM »
Well, I can't think of a Latin name off hand, but I would counter-point that, at some point in their life, our friend from ATS has lied. Even if it was only blaming the pet dog/cat/gerbil/hamster/rabbit/snake/tarantula for farting, they lied. Therefore, by their logic, I should  take every word they say as suspect, even if they said 'it's 12:30 PM in Chicago and the sun is above the horizon'. Basically, it sounds like they are trying to push the ball into your court and hand you the burden of evidence, which is not the case.

Offline gillianren

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2016, 12:52:52 AM »
The US government has also been known to tell the truth, so what does that even prove?
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2016, 04:13:47 AM »
I think the obvious answer to his basic question is "Because you haven't shown me evidence of them lying".

Lies can be shown to be lies when the truth is known and the lie is proven to be false Simply calling something a lie is not proof that it is a lie, just as "Questioning [insert known fact]" does not automatically invalidate [known fact].

I have a slight issue with the logical fallacy position, in that while it is useful for categorising a debating style, or why the position a poster has adopted has led them to the either an inappropriate question or the wrong conclusion, it does not identify why the conclusion is wrong or the question badly put.

Too often I see someone just posting "If I ran the zoo" or "appeal to authority", or whatever, as if that was all they needed to put. It seems sometimes to be something that shows off the poster's knowledge of debating techniques rather than the topic under discussion.

Gillianren is correct in showing that the contrary position is just as logical as the hoax believer in question, but to really shut him up he needs to be shown evidence that NASA has not lied. Admittedly he is unlikely to believe it because he is a dullard and has already decided in advance that he need not pay any attention to evidence from his self-discredited source, but neutrals reading the thread will know he's been trounced.

Offline bknight

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 09:07:44 AM »
...

Gillianren is correct in showing that the contrary position is just as logical as the hoax believer in question, but to really shut him up he needs to be shown evidence that NASA has not lied. Admittedly he is unlikely to believe it because he is a dullard and has already decided in advance that he need not pay any attention to evidence from his self-discredited source, but neutrals reading the thread will know he's been trounced.
I think you have both penned a more through thought and I agree with both observations:
Governments/NASA don't lie(always)
The poster won't likely believe that proposition.  It IS difficult to educate/sway those that have already concluded some bit reason and other external input is dismissed off hand.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2016, 11:28:31 AM »
Very often I see fallacious comments somewhere, but when I look through various online lists of logical fallacies I cannot quite place which one (or more) applies.

Don't knock yourself out over it.  From Aristotle onwards there have been several taxonomies of fallacy.  None is definitive, not because the scholars are inept but because divisions among classes of irrational thought are sufficiently gray, and because the taxonomy reflects the domain of reasoning to which it's meant to apply.  What is the difference, for example, between begging the question and circular reasoning?  None, really.  They're just two aspects of the same general flaw.

The typical modern name for the fallacy at hand is "guilt by association," the converse of "hasty generalization." More formally there are several concepts that apply, all intruding deeply on the other's territory.  It falls into the field of categorical reasoning, which is the land of Venn diagrams and inferring from what can be known by membership in a set.  Categorical deductions can almost always be phrased as classical syllogisms:  a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion.

The government always lies.
NASA is part of the government, therefore
NASA is lying.

These sorts of syllogism can fail for two reasons.  First, one or both premises can be false.  And second, the syllogism may be of a "non-validating" form -- the non sequitur.  Here the major premise is untenable.  In fact the government sometimes lies and sometimes tells the truth.  Therefore truth-telling is not a property that may be properly generalized among all members of the government such that mere mention of the membership allows you to assert something about the property.  The syllogism is of validating form, which means that if the premises are true then the conclusion must follow deductively.  Validating versus non-validating forms are discerned by the proper relationships among the categories implied in the premises.

And now for something completely different, you can also examine it according to explanatory logic, which is the taxonomy of methods used to investigate and explain phenomena.  Here "hasty generalization" and "guilt by association" get recast as fallacies of such things as limited depth and scope.  Purported explanations are considered fallacious if they lack appropriate scope, which means they don't explain all the phenomena that legitimately seem to belong to the subject group.  "You say NASA lies because it's part of the government, but I know plenty of government agencies that don't lie."  It's the same flaw in reasoning, but here the explanation is revealed as lacking the implied scope:  it doesn't explain all the observable behavior.

Explanations can also suffer from limited depth, meaning their proposition of cause goes no further than reflecting the observation.  "You say NASA is lying about Apollo because NASA are liars."  What about being NASA makes them liars?  Merely identifying membership in a set and purporting a property of that set isn't enough.  Fallacies of limited depth are largely indistinguishable from circular reasoning, so both terms apply.  The purported property of the set usually is a begged question, so that fallacy applies too.

So if it seems like more than one fallacy from more than one list of them applies, it probably does.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2016, 11:30:21 AM »
The US government has also been known to tell the truth, so what does that even prove?

This is very helpful in discussions with conspiracists.  They will correctly say it is not probative to trust the government because they have been shown in some cases to be untrustworthy.  But as you note, it is just as incorrect and non-probative to implicitly distrust the government.  The error in reasoning the act of presumption, not the direction toward which the presumption was directed.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline DD Brock

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2016, 11:53:31 AM »
When the CT's post stuff like that, I am fond of saying "Only a fool believes everything his government tells him. Only a fool believes everything his government tells him is a lie" They usually miss the point.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2016, 12:25:53 PM »
That's because they're thinking in terms of what is safe or prudent to do, not what is factually correct.  Even with a healthy amount of paranoia it's prudent not to rely implicitly on something that has a checkered track record if other avenues are available.  The structure of government is based on the presumption that its agents will attempt to act improperly, and accordingly puts each element of it at enmity with the others.  Hence there's an undeniable modicum of intellectual wisdom in, "Don't trust the government."  But the question of trust is not the same as the question of representation.  "Should you trust the government in this?" is a soft question, while "Is the government telling me the truth in this instance?" can be tested according to discoverable fact; it's a hard question.

Substituting one question for another falls under classes of equivocal fallacies.  "Did the government hoax Apollo?" and "Should we trust the government to tell us the truth about Apollo?" are not the same kind of question.  Posing one under the guise of the other equivocates (a fallacy).  Answering challenges from one with rationales from the other is a red herring (another fallacy).  In the original Aristotelian taxonomy these all fell under the label ignoratio elenchi, whose formulation by Aristotle seems muddled by today's standards and requires a thoughtful understanding of what he meant by such words as elenchos -- "refutation."  Nevertheless he defined it best:  "Those that depend upon whether something is said in a certain respect only or said absolutely, are clear cases of ignoratio elenchi because the affirmation and the denial are not concerned with the same point."  (On Sophistical Refutations, part 6)
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline smartcooky

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2016, 07:28:31 AM »
It looks like an "Association Fallacy" to me.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html

An association fallacy (also called "Guilt by Association" is a generalisation which claims that qualities of one thing are qualities of another thing simply because they are associated.....

Example:  The Nazi Party supported building a large, national highway system.
President Eisenhower supported building a large, national highway system.
Therefore, President Eisenhower was a Nazi.



If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline bknight

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2016, 10:37:45 AM »
It looks like an "Association Fallacy" to me.
...

Example:  The Nazi Party supported building a large, national highway system.
President Eisenhower supported building a large, national highway system.
Therefore, President Eisenhower was a Nazi.

This is news to me  ::)
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Offline nomuse

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2016, 05:38:16 PM »
I keep expecting someone to quote "All Cretans are liars...."

Offline Willoughby

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2016, 07:36:38 PM »
I know this is late, but I just joined.  My call would be ad hominem.  The association fallacy would fit if the claim that was trying to be proven were "NASA is lying", but that's not really the claim.  The claim is that the landings were faked, and the person is simply trying to invalidate NASA's claims by attacking their character rather than arguing the claims they make.  I'd call it simple ad hominem.

Offline twik

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2016, 12:36:46 PM »
I wonder if we need a new term to go with ad hominem. Ad govermentem, perhaps? The fallacy that because it has been stated by a government department, spokesperson or employee (even the person who cleans the lavatories), it must be automatically false.

Offline Allan F

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Re: What is the logical fallacy?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2016, 08:04:26 PM »
No, that would be "guilt by association", I think.
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