Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 424235 times)

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1560 on: November 04, 2020, 06:07:25 PM »
A quick look at my ballot makes it clear that anyone can start a party.  They won't win any of the major offices, but there's no reason they can't, say, run against that guy in my district who was unopposed and still didn't get anywhere near 100% of the vote; in addition to unknown numbers of people who just didn't vote in that race, or who figured "sure, vote for the only person running," 6% of voters wrote someone in.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline molesworth

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
  • the curse of st custards
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1561 on: November 04, 2020, 06:07:40 PM »
This is a worrying development - mobs of people deciding to take the law into their own hands, and trying to interfere with the electoral process.  I suppose it was inevitable given Trump's ongoing calls for "poll watchers" and claims of fraud.

https://twitter.com/PattersonNBC/status/1324086177885003778

Quote
Large, animated crush of “stop the count” protestors trying to push their way into TCF hall in #Detroit where ballots are being counted.

They’re being blocked by guards at the door.

Pizza boxes are pushed against the window to obstruct view. It’s tense.
Days spent at sea are not deducted from one's allotted span - Phoenician proverb

Offline Allan F

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1562 on: November 04, 2020, 06:36:20 PM »


Note the guy in the hat. A well-known danish comedian, musician, writer and ex-alcoholic with a daughter with muscle wasting disease, and usually a conferencier at a series of open-air concerts to benefit a foundation for people with muscle wasting disease. He founded a party called "The society for deliberately work-dodging elements", on a programme promising more following wind on bike-paths. And Nutella in field rations, among other things.

He got elected, and was a member of parliament for four years.



And people were deeply surprised when he actually was very serious. In Denmark, political parties are paid after an electrion from public funds relative to their number of votes. He used his money to serve hotdogs and beer on a public square.

Didn't get the following wind through parliament though. But he DID get real Nutella in the army's field rations.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 07:13:15 PM by Allan F »
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1274
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1563 on: November 05, 2020, 03:41:47 AM »
I understand that your method of electing a president funnels you into a two-party system.

Where I live, anybody can start a new party, collect supporters (usually by having people sign up in the streets) and present a certain number of written endorsements. It's not exactly like that, dunno the exact lingo, but if enough people will put their name on "I think this party might be a good idea"-paper, then that person can run for the danish parlament. The backers don't have to vote for this party or pay a fee to this party. They just have to say "I think this party should be allowed to be on the ballot for the next election".

Then that party must acheive at least 2% of the votes to actually get a seat (two seats, since there are 179 seats in total). This system ensures there's a wide number of parties to represent the citizens. After the election, the Queen appoints a Royal Negotiator, usually the foreperson of the largest party, who then attempts to form a government with 90 members of parliament behind it. By negotiating with other parties, promising ministery posts and changes to laws in exchange for votes in the parliament, the Royal Negotiator hopefully reaches a solution which can then be presented to the Queen. The Prime Minister usually is the foreperson of the largest party in the coalition of parties working together.

That way, small parties with only a few seats in the parliament can effect significant influence, by "selling" its votes to the coalition which offers the most in return.

My understanding is that whether a political system veers into a two-party system or a multi-party system depends on whether it has single-member electorates or multi-member electorates.

Britain can take credit for introducing single-member electorates, and this system was copied in the USA, Canada and Australia among other countries. All these countries have largely gone to a two-party system (yes, there are exceptions, but they are usually based around very specific ethnic issues).

Countries which have introduced some form of multi-member electoral system - most of Europe I understand - have a broad range of political parties.

The difference is that the target number of votes required is much more concentrated in single-member electorates, and this is hard for a party with broad but diffuse support to achieve. Here in Australia the Greens generally get a higher proportion of the vote than the Nationals (junior coalition partner to the Liberals), but the Nationals' support is concentrated in rural electorates while the Greens' support is spread across the whole country. The result is that the Nationals have 10 seats in the House of Representatives while the Greens have only 1.

However, in Australia (unlike in the UK and Canada) our Senate is elected, with equal numbers of senators from each state. But while that might seem to make Australia like the USA, we have 12 senators per state (and two per territory), with six seats up for grabs each election. But in the USA only one Senate seat is ever up for grabs at each election, meaning that Senate elections in the USA are like Reps elections, meaning the two-party system applies in the Senate too. But in Australia we have a proportional representation voting system for the Senate, and this means that minor parties can win Senate seats with relative ease.

So our Senate has a cross bench of 14 out of 76 Senate seats (including 9 Greens). This means the government of the day usually has to work to pass legislation, either by enlisting Opposition support or assembling some one-off coalition of cross-benchers. On the one hand we have the political stability of a government which holds a majority in the House of Representatives, and on the other hand minor parties are able to influence legislation as it works its way through the Senate so the government doesn't have it all its own way.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1274
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1564 on: November 05, 2020, 03:49:39 AM »
A well-known danish comedian, musician, writer and ex-alcoholic with a daughter with muscle wasting disease, and usually a conferencier at a series of open-air concerts to benefit a foundation for people with muscle wasting disease. He founded a party called "The society for deliberately work-dodging elements", on a programme promising more following wind on bike-paths. And Nutella in field rations, among other things.

He got elected, and was a member of parliament for four years.

And people were deeply surprised when he actually was very serious. In Denmark, political parties are paid after an electrion from public funds relative to their number of votes. He used his money to serve hotdogs and beer on a public square.

Didn't get the following wind through parliament though. But he DID get real Nutella in the army's field rations.

It's a bit of a Thing to have comedians become politicians: https://www.ft.com/content/5d25d042-756e-11e9-be7d-6d846537acab

Here in Australia it seems we elect footballers instead. Or journalists.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1274
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1565 on: November 05, 2020, 03:59:35 AM »
Incidentally, a bit of a comment about the election. There were a couple of observations by the presenters of the Australian ABC show "Planet America".

One was that the millions of dollars spent on TV ads by the Democrats appear to have had no effect on changing people's minds.

The other was that the success of the Democrats in Georgia has been due to the work of Stacey Abrams in building the party up by the grassroots.

I do believe I've made a couple of comments in the last year or so about the importance of doing exactly that. Assuming it's an accurate assessment, hopefully the party in other states will follow her example.

(Which raises the obvious question, if the party can raise such massive amounts of money as Biden did, can it be used to pay people to do work for the party rather than for TV ads?)
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline ineluki

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1566 on: November 05, 2020, 04:58:00 AM »
Who do you think is voting for him?  It is the misogynists, bigots, racists, narcissists and liars who are in his corner.

It's no surprise that those were voting for him, but that
- they are so many of them
- enough voters were willing to believe Trump's "Fake news" denials
- enough voters were willing to ignore his behavior, and vote for him anyway

Offline molesworth

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
  • the curse of st custards
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1567 on: November 05, 2020, 05:55:49 AM »
... But he DID get real Nutella in the army's field rations.
Now that's something worth voting for.  Nutella should be a basic human right for everyone  ;D
Days spent at sea are not deducted from one's allotted span - Phoenician proverb

Offline molesworth

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
  • the curse of st custards
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1568 on: November 05, 2020, 06:02:57 AM »
Who do you think is voting for him?  It is the misogynists, bigots, racists, narcissists and liars who are in his corner.

It's no surprise that those were voting for him, but that
- they are so many of them
- enough voters were willing to believe Trump's "Fake news" denials
- enough voters were willing to ignore his behavior, and vote for him anyway

A lot of voters may be looking at single issues and ignoring the other aspects of his personality - "Well, he may be a bit homophobic, but he's trying to stop illegal immigrants.", "Well, he may be a bit racist, but he's pro-life." ... mix & match as required.  They'll give him a pass on all his other flaws, as long as he's supporting (or claiming to) the issue they see as most important.
Days spent at sea are not deducted from one's allotted span - Phoenician proverb

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1274
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1569 on: November 05, 2020, 06:58:25 AM »
Who do you think is voting for him?  It is the misogynists, bigots, racists, narcissists and liars who are in his corner.

It's no surprise that those were voting for him, but that
- they are so many of them
- enough voters were willing to believe Trump's "Fake news" denials
- enough voters were willing to ignore his behavior, and vote for him anyway

A lot of voters may be looking at single issues and ignoring the other aspects of his personality - "Well, he may be a bit homophobic, but he's trying to stop illegal immigrants.", "Well, he may be a bit racist, but he's pro-life." ... mix & match as required.  They'll give him a pass on all his other flaws, as long as he's supporting (or claiming to) the issue they see as most important.

An important point, that. While there's been a lot said (including here) about people who cheer everything Trump has said, there are also many who've said they voted for him with a degree of reluctance.

But I read an article somewhere in the last week or so which said the strongest indicator of whether someone would vote for Trump was, simply, that they usually voted Republican.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline ineluki

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1570 on: November 05, 2020, 08:12:33 AM »
But I read an article somewhere in the last week or so which said the strongest indicator of whether someone would vote for Trump was, simply, that they usually voted Republican.

As Tom Clancy once had one of his characters claim "About forty percent of the people vote Democrat. About forty percent vote Republican. Of those eighty percent, most wouldn't change their votes if Adolf Hitler was running against Abe Lincoln"

It seems he wasn't far from the truth.

Offline Ranb

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1571 on: November 05, 2020, 08:13:00 AM »
A lot of voters may be looking at single issues and ignoring the other aspects of his personality - "Well, he may be a bit homophobic, but he's trying to stop illegal immigrants.", "Well, he may be a bit racist, but he's pro-life." ... mix & match as required.  They'll give him a pass on all his other flaws, as long as he's supporting (or claiming to) the issue they see as most important.
Well, the GOP had control of the White House and Congress from 2016-2018.  No significant action on abortion, curbing illegal immigration (especially punishing like Trump those who employ them) or gun control unless you count his gun grab.  Trump did manage to change many self-professed gun nuts into whiney anti-gun weasels.  :)   

Offline LunarOrbit

  • Administrator
  • Saturn
  • *****
  • Posts: 1052
    • ApolloHoax.net
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1572 on: November 05, 2020, 08:56:01 AM »
One was that the millions of dollars spent on TV ads by the Democrats appear to have had no effect on changing people's minds.

I don't know how many minds were changed, but voter turnout was way up across the board so I'm guessing the advertising did motivate people somewhat.

People think the "blue wave" failed to materialize, but it did. It was just met with an almost equal red wave.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1573 on: November 05, 2020, 10:17:52 AM »
I talked to some black women in this election cycle who are single-issue abortion voters.  They ignore that the Democrats' policies are the ones that actually reduce abortion (increased access to birth care, a greater social safety net, etc.) and the non-zero chance that Trump has personally pressured women into abortions and vote for the party that hates them.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline theteacher

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 33
Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1574 on: November 05, 2020, 01:23:22 PM »
He got elected, and was a member of parliament for four years.

I actually voted for the guy. It was in 1994 :) I think he did a fairly decent job in the parliament after all.