Author Topic: Shenzhou 7?  (Read 157572 times)

Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #315 on: July 06, 2012, 11:18:18 PM »
Because his legs are still attached to the rest of him. In the absence of external forces EVERY movement he makes ANYWHERE will affect his entire body, especially if those movements are made against another object. Moreover, the relative size of him and the spacecraft means that the spacecraft itself will move a little as well, and since the camera is on the spacecraft that will translate to a video appearing to show a fixed craft with the man moving in relation to it.

He needs the force in the correct direction to allow his legs to move in the opposite. If his wrists are the only things moving back and forth, there's no force actually pushing his legs in the opposite direction. Think of a scale or a teter totter. The weight from one end pushes down (force) which sends the other end in the opposite direction because it's unbalanced. So if he applies force upward or bumps into the craft while moving down, we should expect to see his legs go back up relative to the camera's frame. What we instead see, if his wrists moving as if I was typing on the keyboard and his legs floating up. This can be shown in neutral buoyancy underwater. Achieve neutral buoyancy and then write the words "I am in zeroG" while underwater or something. Your legs don't have a force pushing them from the opposite direction, so they don't move. This is basic Newtons laws.

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And I still await your acknowledgement of the 'upward' floating strap and coiled tether from the part of the Gemini 4 EVA before Ed White exits the spacecraft, which you seem to have glossed over in the hope no-one noticed.

I have already addressed Gemini claims MANY times on this thread. As he pushes down or up while exiting (which he clearly is) inertia takes the tether and strap upward or downward based on his movement. What we see in the Gemini 4 spacewalk is much different than what we see in the Chinese spacewalk.
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #316 on: July 06, 2012, 11:21:49 PM »
You have not acknowledged the various challenges to Dr Qu Zheng's 'expertise'.

Amateurs don't work as engineers at JPL.

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You brought forth a part of this argument that does not pertain specifically to Shenzhou 7.
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I did not.

You stated that China has the capability to put a man into space. Is that the same as "Shenzhou 7 was real"? No. Of course it's not. And whether they can put man into space on a wide scale is not SPECIFICALLY Shenzhou 7, which this thread is about...


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So you think that spacefaring nations and other countries with the capability to track and communicate with orbiting spacecraft can be easily fooled by the evil commies?
China may have a LOT of control over the stuff it releases to the outside world, but a) it is not absolute, and b) it is impossible to conceal a spacecraft that orbits the entire world once every 90 minutes and can be tracked by anyone with the capability.
The 'evidence' is the combined acknowledgement of the achievement by many other countries, several of which are ideologically opposed to China's government if not outright hostile, and several of which would be more than happy to expose a fraud of that kind.

An unmanned spacecraft can be tracked. There is no independent film of a Chinese man walking in space. It was all released by China. So if they launched an unmanned Shenzhou, who would know?
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #317 on: July 06, 2012, 11:22:42 PM »
Vincent, we're still waiting for the results of your underwater flag waving experiment. When will you provide them?

When I perform it.
No such experiment has been conducted on my part for two reasons.

1.) I don't have a mini flag.
2.) I don't have a clean pool outside of my cousins' pool. That still brings option 1 against me.
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #318 on: July 06, 2012, 11:24:31 PM »
I've noticed one instance...the only movement appears to be...there appears to be.
That is not an argument, it is a lack of understanding.
[/quote]

Of course that's an argument. When Greeks looked up in the skies and noticed that some "stars" appeared to move, was that a lack of understanding? Were the planets really not moving? Just because someone says something appears so doesn't mean that what they see doesn't exist. Big difference. Frankly, I'm shocked that you didn't realize that...
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #319 on: July 06, 2012, 11:26:36 PM »
So, in other words, you don't doubt that the technology is capable of sending people into orbit, you doubt that the Chinese people are capable of understanding the technology.

No. I don't say only China can't understand it, but they do have a hunger to be a world power. If they don't understand spaceflight, (Like many countries don't), then they will have to fake it in order to establish their position in the world of space.
It has nothing to do with specifically hating Chinese. It has to do with hypothesizing a mission was faked. That mission just happens to have been a Chinese one.
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #320 on: July 06, 2012, 11:29:11 PM »
The belief that "only Americans can do this" is somewhat offensive to me, and I'm not even Chinese.

We need to get something straight here... I don't think only Americans can accomplish spaceflight. There are Russians right now on the international space station. The first man in space was Russian. Russia has done a lot of stuff, too and they were communists. They also lied about a lot of things because communist governments aren't open and therefore can lie and get away with it.

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Your patriotism/racism is blinding you to a real threat to your (slowly degrading) superiority.

Patriotism? This country is a total shit hole these days. It has nothing to do with liking America or hating China. It has to do with seeing signs of fakery in their official video...
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Offline SolusLupus

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #321 on: July 06, 2012, 11:31:39 PM »
No. I don't say only China can't understand it, but they do have a hunger to be a world power. If they don't understand spaceflight, (Like many countries don't), then they will have to fake it in order to establish their position in the world of space.
It has nothing to do with specifically hating Chinese. It has to do with hypothesizing a mission was faked. That mission just happens to have been a Chinese one.

So the argument involving your grandmother was completely superfluous and even downright disingenuous, if you are not claiming that the Chinese are "just incapable" of learning spaceflight.

So they log many hours in space, with unmanned and manned missions, with a high knowledge of mathematics and physics, but just happen to be completely incapable of spacewalking because... why?
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #322 on: July 06, 2012, 11:32:03 PM »
He assumes he knows more than other people based solely on what he has learned by playing video games and watching YouTube videos.

Or doing independent research into the technicalities of spacecraft and orbital mechanics? How do you think the first people learned it may be possible to orbit something? They had no textbooks to read. They did the research on their own. Are you saying Kepler was an uneducated amateur just because his research was independent?

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And I agree that he just wants to be special, which is why he posts under his real name (something I advise strongly against, especially if you're a teenager).

No. It has nothing to do with wanting to be special. I post under my real name so I can be identified easily across forums. Earlier, I was accused of being someone else on the Unexplained Mysteries forum. A forum I have never registered with or used. If it WAS me, I would have registered in my real name. As I have done on two other forums besides this one. It makes everything convenient. And because I later come to dislike the username I've chosen if I just don't use my real name.
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #323 on: July 06, 2012, 11:34:46 PM »
So the argument involving your grandmother was completely superfluous and even downright disingenuous, if you are not claiming that the Chinese are "just incapable" of learning spaceflight.

No. But it helps explain that just because a technology works, doesn't mean the operator understands how to use it. Just because China USES Russian technology doesn't mean they have learned how to properly put it to work. This goes for any country that attempts spaceflight. Not just China.

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So they log many hours in space, with unmanned and manned missions, with a high knowledge of mathematics and physics, but just happen to be completely incapable of spacewalking because... why?

As I have said, I believe Shenzhou 5 was likely real. I have seen video of the inside of the cabin in zero g for a few minutes at a time. But sitting in a pressurized cabin and then actually evacuating all the air and relying on nothing but a pressure suit and then getting out to walk around near a bunch of sharp metal is a totally different story. Who knows? Maybe they have faulty pressure suits, don't want to risk man or have simply not mastered the technology yet.
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #324 on: July 06, 2012, 11:36:32 PM »
I stopped being stunned back on the old board last year when he accused me of being an HB.  The fact is, his arguments sound exactly like those of someone who just wants to be special.  Now, I know that the fact that I don't have your education in the sciences, so I assume that you know more than I do on the subject.  Vincent assumes that, somehow, he still knows things you do not.  He wants to be special.

It has nothing to do with being special, as I told LO.
But many qualified people can be blind to evidence because they simply don't want something to not be real. I have still received NO proof to the claim that China has the ability to let a man spacewalk outside his cabin. Many people have said that here on this thread but have offered no proof of their claims. I guess we can just assume there is no proof that China can safely spacewalk...
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Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #325 on: July 06, 2012, 11:39:44 PM »
I think it's you that are making the assumption that "compared to the US and Russia, China has an inherent incapability of achieving space flight, and performing a space walk". This starts to sound a little racist, does it not?
China is hardly your grandmother when it comes to technology.

Absolutely ridiculous. China has not had space-age technology for almost 60 years like the US and Russia has. Someone who is new to something might "suck" at it. If China can't do something yet, but they want to be apart of the game, they can just as easily fake it. Were you alive in the 60's? If you were, you remember space missions (advanced ones, too!) going up every few months. Apollo missions going up just three months apart or whatever. From testing the LM in LEO in March to landing it on the moon in July. China has so far (apparently) achieved three manned space missions over the last almost ten years.... If they were moving at the rate we were in the 60's, they'd already have landed a man on the moon. But they're not.
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Offline ChrLz

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #326 on: July 07, 2012, 12:35:27 AM »
Absolutely ridiculous. China has not had space-age technology for almost 60 years like the US and Russia has.
56 years ago, in..
1955/6 - China implements ballistic missile program (USSR and China even had a cooperative technology transfer agreement at that time)
1958-60 - China launches first missiles
1964 - China launches and recovers a rocket with live passengers (8 white mice..!)
1964 - China detonates first successful nuclear device
1965 - China produces successful ICBM type missiles with nuclear warheads
1967 - China sets up space technology centres including a Space Medicine Institute with a view to 'keeping up' with the space race
1968 - China develops a manned capsule and has begun selecting /training astronauts for potential missions
1969/70 - China develops 2 heavy-lifting rocket designs for launching sateliites, and in April of that year successfully launched the Mao-1 satellite (which weighed more than all of the first satellites put up by the other four competing countries combined..)
...
***** NOTE - this is still over 40 YEARS AGO....

I'll stop there (before getting to Long March, Shenzhou 5 in 2003 and Chang'e in 2007), but seriously Vincent, don't you think it's time you did the hard work BEFORE you post such ignorance?

Offline VincentMcConnell

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #327 on: July 07, 2012, 01:07:18 AM »
seriously Vincent, don't you think it's time you did the hard work BEFORE you post such ignorance?

That is so ironic that I actually started laughing! NONE of the examples you posted was a man in space, a man on the moon, a rendezvous between orbiting space craft etc. Notice the words I wrote, "LIKE THE US AND RUSSIA"
Pretty clear who is posting the ignorance here. Please actually READ my post before responding to it. Thanks.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #328 on: July 07, 2012, 01:11:24 AM »
Amateurs don't work as engineers at JPL.

What kind of engineer is he? How is he qualified to judge the authenticity of the Chinese space program?

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There is no independent film of a Chinese man walking in space. It was all released by China. So if they launched an unmanned Shenzhou, who would know?

There was no independent film of the first US or Russian spacewalks either. This leads me to wonder why you accept the word of NASA and the Russians, but not the Chinese.

If they don't understand spaceflight, (Like many countries don't), then they will have to fake it in order to establish their position in the world of space.

Why is fakery the only option? Isn't it more likely that they would simply learn how to do it for real? If they don't understand space flight they could study it. It's been 50 years since the first manned space flights by Russia and the US... do you think maybe the Chinese have had time to read a book or two about space flight since then? Or maybe enroll some of their children in American universities? I really don't understand why you believe the Chinese are incapable of doing this.

But I'm pretty sure the Chinese have had some understanding of rocketry for quite some time. They did invent the darn things, after all.

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It has nothing to do with specifically hating Chinese. It has to do with hypothesizing a mission was faked. That mission just happens to have been a Chinese one.

You don't doubt the Russians. You don't doubt the US. You doubt the Chinese. Why? Explain it to me. Why do you believe the Chinese are incapable of doing something that the Russians and Americans did 50 years ago?

How do you think the first people learned it may be possible to orbit something? They had no textbooks to read. They did the research on their own.

Why are the Chinese incapable of doing this?

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Are you saying Kepler was an uneducated amateur just because his research was independent?

You're not Kepler. You're just a kid with delusions of grandeur.

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It has nothing to do with wanting to be special. I post under my real name so I can be identified easily across forums.

It's incredibly dangerous to post using your real name. And it could also make it difficult for you to get a job if potential employers Google your name and discover you're a looney conspiracy theorist. You're free to do as you wish, of course, I'm just giving you some friendly advice.

Absolutely ridiculous. China has not had space-age technology for almost 60 years like the US and Russia has. Someone who is new to something might "suck" at it.

Huh? The US and Russia did not have "space-age technology for almost 60 years" when they made their first space flights either. So what are you saying? That no one can do something that hasn't been done before? How does anything new ever get accomplished then?

China has the advantage of being able to study how the US and Russia accomplished their first space flights. They aren't completely in the dark.

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If China can't do something yet, but they want to be apart of the game, they can just as easily fake it.

Why do conspiracy theorists always assume that faking something is easier than actually doing it for real?

I believe Shenzhou 5 was likely real. I have seen video of the inside of the cabin in zero g for a few minutes at a time. But sitting in a pressurized cabin and then actually evacuating all the air and relying on nothing but a pressure suit and then getting out to walk around near a bunch of sharp metal is a totally different story. Who knows? Maybe they have faulty pressure suits, don't want to risk man or have simply not mastered the technology yet.

Ridiculous. If having "faulty suits" was the only issue they could very easily just wait until they sort out the problem. And since the suits are pretty much just off the shelf Russian space suits I don't see why they would be faulty to begin with.

And if the suits were faulty... would they be safe in that swimming pool where you think they filmed the spacewalk?

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Were you alive in the 60's? If you were, you remember space missions (advanced ones, too!) going up every few months. Apollo missions going up just three months apart or whatever. From testing the LM in LEO in March to landing it on the moon in July. China has so far (apparently) achieved three manned space missions over the last almost ten years.... If they were moving at the rate we were in the 60's, they'd already have landed a man on the moon. But they're not.

I don't see how that proves they are faking it. They're being cautious and/or thrifty. They aren't rushing anything because they aren't in a race to beat anyone.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Shenzhou 7?
« Reply #329 on: July 07, 2012, 01:48:09 AM »
Amateurs don't work as engineers at JPL.

Not everyone who works at/for JPL is an engineer, and not every engineer has knowledge in the relevant fields.
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