Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.

[nomuse]

Yah.

And make this context bigger. Obviously, there are unforeseen interactions between systems. That's why there are a series of integration tests in any complex device. But what Neil is suggesting is not vibration or loss of efficiency or something else that happens when everything is in the same box. For the all-up test he requires to be necessary to "prove" humans-in-space, this unforeseen interaction is that sublimation cooling totally fails. Doesn't work. Can't be tweaked, can't be patched, can't be re-engineered.

It is as if making GI's crawl under wire while a machine gun fires (quite a bit higher than it feels like, fortunately!) is necessary because otherwise you'd never know if the trainee might turn into a werewolf because of it. Or something else equally astounding, unpredictable, and completely incompatible with their continuing service in the armed forces.

[Dalhousie]

NASA alleges they've been testing them for more than fifty years.

NASA alleges they test them now.

NASA and others have been seen, by the whole wide world, to have been USING them, in the environment for which they were intended, for the last 50 years or so.

You'd have to be a half-blind wombat not to have seen this. There's been live broadcasts, there's been film, video, stills, and a raft of accounts of their activities from the astronauts concerned.

Which bit of this did you miss?

Not to mention Russian (which have been in use just as long and more recently Chinese space suits.

The Orlan is a beautiful piece of engineering, from its easy 'open the back and climb in' entry to its ingenious 'sunroof' porthole in the top of the helmet.

Indeed it is.  The English translation of the training manual is available from http://www.colorado.edu/ASEN/asen3036/Orlan.pdf . It too uses a sublimator for cooling. 

So does Mr Baker consider every EVA since Alexi Leonov a fake?  Although that would be small beer compared to denying the Holocaust.

[Neil Baker]

So sure, the sublimator and suit get vacuum should be tested unmanned first. Then they should test them with a human subject. Are you saying it's only moral to wear them when you're already traveling 17,000 mph in an orbit about 250 miles high?  I say any responsible and reasonable astronaut strengthens and demonstrates their confidence by donning the suit with sublimator and using them in a high vacuum chamber on Earth prior to launch. Several times to perform several drills sometimes with another donned astronaut practicing buddy system troubleshooting. And they play the game film after exiting the vacuum chamber for game critique.  There should be astronauts in vacuum chamber testing video coming out of our ears. But, strangely, just that one from 1966. And a failure at that. Near fatality. Bizarre.

Yes, this is an absurd anomaly.
Immoral? Unbelievable.
Would you don a spacesuit at the ISS to perform an EVA in orbit if you hadn't already donned that suit on Earth for an excursion in a high vacuum chamber on Earth?

[Neil Baker]

I'll defend a Apollo hoax believer if I believe they are being treated unfairly... but I won't defend a holocaust denying scumbag. They're fair game.

Do you want to discuss it or not?
It's your site. I'll follow the rules.
If you want to discuss it, please start the Holocuast thread.

[Zakalwe]

And then we'd have an Independent Holocaust Investigation.

Wow. Just. Wow.

It's worse than NASA.
No documented gas chambers.
Nowhere near enough ovens.
Lice insecticide, Zyklon B, still manufactured as Uragan D2 with the charges that it was used as an agent of mass murder scoffed at by its Czech Republic manufacturers.
Worst, outrageous thought crime laws in 14 nations prohibiting the questioning or investigation of the holocaust.
GOD bless America!
An International group of forensic experts could make quick work of this hoax if they were allowed in.
I recommend this website to deprogram yourself from the holocaust garbage they fed you in public school.
http:// [LINK REMOVED] /

Now we get to the swivel-eyed lunacy that exists in your core. Sorry, Mr. Baker, but you are beneath contempt. Perhaps, someday, you will look back on the car-crash that you have made of your short time on this planet and wonder why you filled your life with moronic thoughts as the one expressed above.
Then again, you will probably go to your grave in the sole belief that you are some sort of truther-finder. You're not- you are lower than low.

[Dalhousie]

So sure, the sublimator and suit get vacuum should be tested unmanned first. Then they should test them with a human subject. Are you saying it's only moral to wear them when you're already traveling 17,000 mph in an orbit about 250 miles high?  I say any responsible and reasonable astronaut strengthens and demonstrates their confidence by donning the suit with sublimator and using them in a high vacuum chamber on Earth prior to launch. Several times to perform several drills sometimes with another donned astronaut practicing buddy system troubleshooting. And they play the game film after exiting the vacuum chamber for game critique.  There should be astronauts in vacuum chamber testing video coming out of our ears. But, strangely, just that one from 1966. And a failure at that. Near fatality. Bizarre.

Yes, this is an absurd anomaly.
Immoral? Unbelievable.
Would you don a spacesuit at the ISS to perform an EVA in orbit if you hadn't already donned that suit on Earth for an excursion in a high vacuum chamber on Earth?

Someone who denies the holocaust is not capable of rational discussion.

[Sus_pilot]

NASA has never publicly demonstrated before independent witnesses a spacesuit with ice sublimator cooling system in a high vacuum chamber on Earth duplicating environmental conditions of orbit.

Now it appears they've never tested a spacesuited astronaut while in a vacuum chamber at all except for that last documented test way back in 1966 when the suit failed causing a near fatality.

I'm puzzled more why they won't even show a video of an ice sublimator in a vacuum chamber with the astronaut outside running on the treadmill.

Our space program is currently a mythological faith-based thing. You insist upon it remaining so.

They did.  April, 1969, followed up several hundred times, starting July, 1969 onward.  Get over it, already.

[Peter B]

So sure, the sublimator and suit get vacuum should be tested unmanned first. Then they should test them with a human subject. Are you saying it's only moral to wear them when you're already traveling 17,000 mph in an orbit about 250 miles high?  I say any responsible and reasonable astronaut strengthens and demonstrates their confidence by donning the suit with sublimator and using them in a high vacuum chamber on Earth prior to launch. Several times to perform several drills sometimes with another donned astronaut practicing buddy system troubleshooting. And they play the game film after exiting the vacuum chamber for game critique.  There should be astronauts in vacuum chamber testing video coming out of our ears. But, strangely, just that one from 1966. And a failure at that. Near fatality. Bizarre.

Yes, this is an absurd anomaly.
Immoral? Unbelievable.
Would you don a spacesuit at the ISS to perform an EVA in orbit if you hadn't already donned that suit on Earth for an excursion in a high vacuum chamber on Earth?

Maybe they've performed those tests and videoed them as you proposed. Why do they then need to release them on the Internet? How much does it cost to employ a bunch of people to go through archives of videos, digitise them, add extra pages to the NASA website and put the video clips in there?

I mean, putting my payroll hat on again, the job of digitising the payroll files of the current and former employees of my employer hasn't happened because they don't have the money to employ even a junior to do the job. And if they want the files to be digitised at a rate faster than we're adding papers to the current files, they're going to need to employ several people. In the minds of the people who make these sorts of decisions it's cheaper to keep using paper files.

In any case...

1. Is personal validation the only way you verify facts? If not, who do you trust to give you reliable information about subjects you're personally unfamiliar with and how do you verify their reliability? What's to stop you from using this process with people testing PLSSs?

2. If NASA faked Apollo because the spacesuit sublimators didn't or couldn't work, don't you think the Soviets would have been smart enough to work this out? Or do you think they were in on the hoax? If so, why would they go along with something which provided a propaganda victory to the USA at the height of the Cold War?

[Sus_pilot]

the only way your going to get your test is to become President.

If I were President, I'd bypass NASA and go straight for the jugular by ordering the establishment of an Independent, fully funded and fully empowered 9-11 investigation.
And then we'd have an Independent Holocaust Investigation.
And then we'd have NASA perform a demo.

I think I got zero votes (except mine of course )and Arnold's vision won.  Cruz Bustamante came in second. Poor California.

Four airplanes were hijacked on September 11, 2001 and, as a result, several thousand innocent people died.

A culture was hijacked 1933 - 1945 and, as a result, six million+ innocent people died, not to mention the millions more as a result of the war that happened.  As an ethnic German, it is painful for me to say, but it is a fact.  I pray,  daily, that we remember the lessons and how precious life is.  People like you trying to unlearn and deny the lessons of history, in effect trying to condemn us to repeat those sins, are beneath contempt.

[Peter B]

I'll defend a Apollo hoax believer if I believe they are being treated unfairly... but I won't defend a holocaust denying scumbag. They're fair game.

Do you want to discuss it or not?
It's your site. I'll follow the rules.
If you want to discuss it, please start the Holocuast thread.

Why should LunarOrbit have to start the thread? You started this one. Why don't you start a Holocaust thread?

[Dalhousie]

2. If NASA faked Apollo because the spacesuit sublimators didn't or couldn't work, don't you think the Soviets would have been smart enough to work this out? Or do you think they were in on the hoax? If so, why would they go along with something which provided a propaganda victory to the USA at the height of the Cold War?

Not to mention why they use sublimators for their own EVA suits, including the Kretchet lunar EVA suit and the current Orlan if they technology doesn't work.  Surplus Kretchets and Orlans have been available for purchase on the open market.  Anyone with enough money to buy one could probably afford to return it to operational condition and test in a vacuum chamber.   Several have been purchased by museums, they could do the same.

[Sus_pilot]

The whole training vs. testing discussion got me to thinking.

I teach people to fly.  Often, under controlled circumstances, I put them in what could be hazardous situations if I weren't there, much as Jay described firefighter trainees have experienced firefighters standing by to guide and protect the inexperienced.  I can talk all day long about an aerodynamic stall, but, until you experience one, particularly if it departs into a spin, you don't really know.

This is vs. an aircraft like the Cirrus, which has a ballistic recovery system. I've seen the films, I've read the training material, and I know where the handle is, but it is not a good idea, both for safety and economic reasons, to actually fire the thing off as a training exercise.

[Jason Thompson]

I say any responsible and reasonable astronaut strengthens and demonstrates their confidence by donning the suit with sublimator and using them in a high vacuum chamber on Earth prior to launch.

Why? By that logic every astronaut shold test their spacecraft in a vacuum chamber before flying a mission, however many astronauts have previously flown in it.

There should be astronauts in vacuum chamber testing video coming out of our ears.

How many tests are required? How many sublimators do you think were made and flown? How many times does each PLSS unit get flown? Why should every astronaut insist on personally verifying that it works in a vacuum chamber?

Would you don a spacesuit at the ISS to perform an EVA in orbit if you hadn't already donned that suit on Earth for an excursion in a high vacuum chamber on Earth?

Yes, I would. Because I understand what validation actually is, and if the testing regime is well documented I will trust my life to the team of engineers who built and tested that suit, just as I would be trusting my life to the engineers who built and tested the spacecraft I am about to fly in. Just as I trust my life to the engineers and pilots who fly the airliners I fly in when I go on a business trip or holiday.

[raven]

By this logic, every astronaut should test fly their vehicle into orbit (or beyond). . . before they fly it.
How that is supposed to work?!

[Dalhousie]

The whole training vs. testing discussion got me to thinking.

I teach people to fly.  Often, under controlled circumstances, I put them in what could be hazardous situations if I weren't there, much as Jay described firefighter trainees have experienced firefighters standing by to guide and protect the inexperienced.  I can talk all day long about an aerodynamic stall, but, until you experience one, particularly if it departs into a spin, you don't really know.

This is vs. an aircraft like the Cirrus, which has a ballistic recovery system. I've seen the films, I've read the training material, and I know where the handle is, but it is not a good idea, both for safety and economic reasons, to actually fire the thing off as a training exercise.

I dive, and learned nearly 30 years ago.  In those days they trained us to do emergency ascents.  A few years later that was abandoned, as it was considered too risky, although the theory was given.