Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.

[Zakalwe]

NASA Technical Note D-8093
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19760003073.pdf
The Apollo Experience Report-The Development of the Extravehicular Mobility Unit.
Published Nov 1975 (this blows your ridiculous 2007 argument into the weeds)

Pages 34-44 shows the development of the PLSS and OPS systems. Full schematics are included
Pages 45-59 details the development of the PLSS. Refer to pages 48-50. This details the change from the original design of the PLSS which incorporated a wick-filled water boiler to remove metabolic heat to a porous-plate sublimator. A sectional view shows the construction of the sublimator.
Pages 62-64 details the qualification testing of the PLSS:
"The PLSS was subjected to a total of 20 thermal-vacuum lunar mission profiles, each lasting 3 or 4 hours. Test conditions simulated lunar day, lunar night, and LM cabin temperatures and pressures as well as crewman heat loads and contaminant level inputs. The total PLSS functional performance was evaluated for the three possible startup conditions: after a cold soak (116-K (-250" F) chamber wall temperature for 2 hours), after a hot soak (366-K (200" F) chamber wall temperature for 2 hours), and at ambient conditions."

Baker- please acknowledge that you have read this document. Recognise the publication date- how come your research did not include this?

Of course, Baker singularly failed to acknowledge the post above, especially the point that the PLSS system was  "...was subjected to a total of 20 thermal-vacuum lunar mission profiles, each lasting 3 or 4 hours. Test conditions simulated lunar day, lunar night, and LM cabin temperatures and pressures as well as crewman heat loads and contaminant level inputs. The total PLSS functional performance was evaluated for the three possible startup conditions: after a cold soak (116-K (-250" F) chamber wall temperature for 2 hours), after a hot soak (366-K (200" F) chamber wall temperature for 2 hours), and at ambient conditions."

So that's between 60 and 80 hours testing in hard vacuum conditions. Exactly the conditions that he is looking for. So, again Mr. Baker, why the insistence on a video?

[Peter B]

By this logic, every astronaut should test fly their vehicle into orbit (or beyond). . . before they fly it.
How that is supposed to work?!

Sounds like the Irish match factory (or Polish if you're American, I suppose) testing each of their products.

[Peter B]

When I was in the Navy I had to attend firefighting school three times where they would make us don an oxygen breathing apparatus (OBA) and enter a steel compartment on land modeled after the compartment of a ship that was engulfed in flames with smoke pouring out of it to put out the fire. It was seriously dangerous. People would sometimes get hurt. It was scary. But it was a tremendous confidence booster. We had fire drills twice a day on the carrier I was stationed aboard and we once had a bad fire in a paint locker that we had to extinguish. After the USS Forrestal fire, nobody could serve aboard ship without having gone through firefighting school. The entire crew, from the highest ranking officer to the lowest enlisted, consisted of trained firefighters that had experienced fighting fires in smoke-filled fire-engulged rooms while wearing an OBA...

So this situation where it appears due to alleged morality reasons that no spacesuit has been tested in a high vacuum chamber with a person in it just makes the alarms in my head go off even louder.  It's like saying it would be immoral to fight a fire in a compartment on land because it's dangerous; let's wait until we have a fire on a ship to fight one.

I think it's common sense. If I'm going to the ISS to perform an EVA, I first don the spacesuit and enter the high vacuum chamber on Earth and pump down to 1e-6 torr. I probably want to do it many times. While I'm in there they shut off the sublimator to perform the recovery drill. They drill other stuff too, loss of electricity, loss of air, loss of spacesuit integrity. I'd probably want to go in with another astronaut to practice the buddy system of PLSS troubleshooting and emergency procedures. And while we're in there we want the whole thing video recorded for replay and post-test analysis...

1. Did you test the contents of each fire extinguisher to make sure they matched the label on the outside? If not, does that mean you trusted every other person on the ship to not maliciously change the labels around to cause mischief?

2. Did you test each fire extinguisher regularly to make sure it worked? If so, did you set fire to part of the ship to make the test as realistic as possible? If not, how could you possibly trust that this equipment would work as intended if a real fire was to break out?

3. Did you videotape all this and then watch it afterwards, and save the videos for future reference and possible uploading to the Internet when it was later invented? If not, why not?

Do you understand the difference between a test of a piece of equipment and the training of personnel?

To once again put my payroll hat on, we have a training version of the payroll program that people can experiment with for training purposes. Much safer than training payroll staff on the real payroll system where it would affect employees' actual pays, particularly if the training involves something like deducting an overpayment recovery from their pay...

[Luke Pemberton]

Would you don a spacesuit at the ISS to perform an EVA in orbit if you hadn't already donned that suit on Earth for an excursion in a high vacuum chamber on Earth?

To answer your question... yes I would. That's because I trust the engineers and scientists that test the space suits and there is much documented video evidence of astronauts using the space suits on shuttle EVAs. But then I understand how validation and verification works and don't apply the ad hoc rules you have created to dig yourself out of a hole after your initial claims clattered around your head.

There is well documented evidence of a space suit going wrong on the first EVA. You might care to look up Alexi Nikolayevich Leonov. So, things can go wrong, despite the testing and checking on Earth. Lessons are learned and modifications are made.

But, I'm know that you will use this as further evidence of your claim that the suit used on the first space walk puffed up, so it is evidence that 50 years of space flight has been hoaxed. You're too predictable.

[smartcooky]

So that's between 60 and 80 hours testing in hard vacuum conditions. Exactly the conditions that he is looking for. So, again Mr. Baker, why the insistence on a video?

When you consider what it would have taken to film (not video, FILM), 60 to 80 hours of testing, you can easily understand why it was not done.

The Arriflex IIC I mentioned earlier was the most common professional 35mm cine camera in the 1960's when the PLSS was being developed. It was the camera of choice for any film-maker of the time. It shoots at 25 frames/sec, which will use about 123 feet of film every minute. Filming 70 hours of testing would consume over half a million feet of film, just under 100 miles.

Question: How are you going to store the processed film
Answer: You will have to use some of these...


This is an 11in diameter, 35mm film can that holds 1,200 feet of film. You will need 430 of them!!!!. Just to put this in perspective, if you stacked them about four feet high, you will end up with 14 piles!

Baker really doesn't have the slightest clue what he is asking for and expecting.

[Luke Pemberton]

Do you want to discuss it or not?
It's your site. I'll follow the rules.
If you want to discuss it, please start the Holocuast thread.

I don't tend to speak for the mod, but you may wish to look at his previous post.

This is off topic and not welcome in my forum. Start your own forum if you want to discuss things like that. This is your only warning.

It's not welcome in the forum, and so much so that LO has removed all links to your holocaust revisionist filth. Do you have any comprehension at all. LO has told you to start your own forum if you want to debate holocaust revisionism, and not start a new thread here. I guess that it's natural that someone claiming to be the anti-Christ should take extreme views.

http://calcoastnews.com/2010/02/ex-ucsb-emgineer-arrested-for-school-death-threats-2/

LO: By all means do what you must with this reply if it oversteps the decency of the forum. I feel that I am sailing close to the wind with the rule by posting this link.

ETA: Off topic, but I'm off for a two day trip in London. I understand that the Apollo 10 CM is on display at the Science Museum and have been egging to go for some time, so I should have some nice pictures. I'm going to the Tower too. All the best dealing with Baker. I cannot say it has been fun with the Holohoax turn of events.

[Dalhousie]

If space suits don't work, why have amateur astronomers on the ground seen astronauts working on the ISS and space shuttle? e.g. this guy in the Netherlands.

http://ralfvandebergh.startje.be/

[Apollo 957]

Would you don a spacesuit at the ISS to perform an EVA in orbit if you hadn't already donned that suit on Earth for an excursion in a high vacuum chamber on Earth?

There's a few suits on the ISS. There's many more than a few astronauts have been to the ISS.

You don't really imagine that every astronaut has 'their' suit, do you, any more than an airline pilot would have 'their' 747 - one that they'd tested individually before flying it?

However, what would you see as the worst-case scenario if the sublimator fails? What effect does this have on the astronaut?

[onebigmonkey]

http://calcoastnews.com/2010/02/ex-ucsb-emgineer-arrested-for-school-death-threats-2/

Repeat offender, as shown by the public record.

http://www.police.ucsb.edu/files/docs/130820.pdf

Maybe he should contact convicted criminal Bart Sibrel and compare notes.

[bknight]

Crawling through mud beneath barb wired with live fire above was a close simulation.

But at least you weren't doing it to test the barbed wire.

Nor the mud, but what was bring tested was keeping your butt down while crawling. 

[bknight]

So sure, the sublimator and suit get vacuum should be tested unmanned first. Then they should test them with a human subject. Are you saying it's only moral to wear them when you're already traveling 17,000 mph in an orbit about 250 miles high?  I say any responsible and reasonable astronaut strengthens and demonstrates their confidence by donning the suit with sublimator and using them in a high vacuum chamber on Earth prior to launch. Several times to perform several drills sometimes with another donned astronaut practicing buddy system troubleshooting. And they play the game film after exiting the vacuum chamber for game critique.  There should be astronauts in vacuum chamber testing video coming out of our ears. But, strangely, just that one from 1966. And a failure at that. Near fatality. Bizarre.

Yes, this is an absurd anomaly.
Immoral? Unbelievable.
Would you don a spacesuit at the ISS to perform an EVA in orbit if you hadn't already donned that suit on Earth for an excursion in a high vacuum chamber on Earth?

You still don't get what the test you propose would really test.  The sublimator would get tested as it only works in a vacuum.  The other part that is tested would be suit/connections/hoses to ensure that all don't have a leak.

[bknight]

I dive, and learned nearly 30 years ago.  In those days they trained us to do emergency ascents.  A few years later that was abandoned, as it was considered too risky, although the theory was given.

That is interesting since I was an instructor 40 years ago and we still taught emergency ascents.  But the instructors were always above the student to interject our bodies and stop/prevent improper ascent.

[Peter B]

The NASA lunar surveyor program allegedly sent seven landers to the moon between 1966 and 1968. Could they have been used to retrieve rocks robotically so it could be claimed later that astronauts gathered them?
Yes, it's pure speculation but if it's all a hoax, would they have gone to such a length to make the hoax convincing?

Please explain what sort of unmanned spacecraft would be capable of collecting rocks up to 10+ kilograms (including rocks chipped off larger rocks), fragile clods of regolith breccia and 2+ metre long core samples and returning them to Earth, given the total mass of material returned from the Moon is around 380 kilograms.

Please provide evidence for the development, construction, launch and operation of this/these spacecraft.

As we know for a fact these samples came from the Moon, please explain the existence of photos which show these samples in situ which also show astronauts: as the photos must have been taken on the Moon, then the astronauts must have been there too, working sublimators or not.

[bknight]

...
ETA: Off topic, but I'm off for a two day trip in London. I understand that the Apollo 10 CM is on display at the Science Museum and have been egging to go for some time, so I should have some nice pictures. I'm going to the Tower too. All the best dealing with Baker. I cannot say it has been fun with the Holohoax turn of events.

If you are able to get close enough, please take some pictures and post them.  Have fun on your trip.

[bknight]

Please explain what sort of unmanned spacecraft would be capable of collecting rocks up to 10+ kilograms (including rocks chipped off larger rocks), fragile clods of regolith breccia and 2+ metre long core samples and returning them to Earth, given the total mass of material returned from the Moon is around 380 kilograms.

Please provide evidence for the development, construction, launch and operation of this/these spacecraft.

As we know for a fact these samples came from the Moon, please explain the existence of photos which show these samples in situ which also show astronauts: as the photos must have been taken on the Moon, then the astronauts must have been there too, working sublimators or not.

Many HB's make this claim, but have no idea what is required to return sample in respect to fuel/launch vehicle to accomplish the return.  Especially the cores, yes one could design a robot to drill cores but the mechanical devices to drill 6' and then disassemble/pack/store the tubes would be a real engineering problem.