Author Topic: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.  (Read 476277 times)

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #765 on: September 02, 2015, 12:11:59 PM »
I've been at this for over ten years, and I'm not entirely convinced there's any such thing as a "typical" HB.  They all have the same basic disdain for science, usually without knowing they do, and they generally have a disdain for the US government--often with the subtext that there is no other government, even when that's logically inconsistent with their other stances--but the way they go about it varies pretty wildly.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #766 on: September 02, 2015, 12:20:07 PM »
I have to agree with Gillianren.  There are different traits we can ascribe to conspiracy theorists, and each individual displays different traits to different degrees.  Few if any become so enraptured with their conspiracy claims that they trip over into criminal territory, so that's certainly a distinction.  For some of the identifiable traits of conspiracy theorists (and psychologists have tentatively categorized a few), Baker's needles are definitely on the red zone of the gauge.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Online Allan F

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #767 on: September 02, 2015, 12:28:07 PM »
Since he should be competent to understand the physics, how can he choose to mentally "look away" when he writes his nonsense? How and why can he be so dishonest to himself? And why does he see dishonesty as the way to gain "the truth" on 9/11?
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #768 on: September 02, 2015, 12:31:58 PM »
I've only been at this for a little over 4 months, but I have seen the distain for science and government.  There is a lot that I learned concerning them reading old posts with them constantly circling about a proposition without giving any more evidence than "I don't see/understand", "There is no way that could have been done", "This contradicts what I expect/observe" and perhaps a few others that I can not remember at this time.  Most of the individuals I have seen/communicated have a preponderance at YT, as I'm watching a lot of movies there(not necessarily CT type).  Trying science/engineering don't go far there for sure.  I keep trying in my modest way so that maybe someone that is on the fence can see light instead of the dark.  Astorbrant2, Phil Webb and BertieSlack do a better job than I in this area.
Off the soap box. :)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #769 on: September 02, 2015, 12:36:16 PM »
Neil understands the science full well, and the scientific method, and how to report scientifically. He is choosing not to in order to pursue what he sees as a righteous crusade.

Correct.  He has said his objection is not on physical science grounds.  He does not doubt the physics of phase-change cooling, or even the engineering of how to build one (which is rather non-trivial as it requires precise control over the sintering processes that create the porous plate).  The only thing he says he doubts is whether they were suitability tested and the tests suitably documented.  That moves the argument entirely out of science and technology, so he can safely sidestep the notion of whether it would work or not.  Of course he still slips in his various comments about all NASA manned space exploration being fake, and therefore obviating the need for working spacesuits.  But his focus is on something he can argue incessantly regardless of what's said to him, because it's policy and not science.  His evidence that NASA fakes manned space operations is not necessarily that the equipment doesn't work, but that NASA cannot document "proper" testing of equipment it says is required.

Still, that raises the question of what a "proper" test would uncover and why NASA is allegedly so fearful to conduct it.  It's not as if Baker's argument is particularly cogent or consistent.  But he's fastened on a little corner of the overall enterprise of space engineering and dug himself in to have a nice long discussion of the policy that applies to it.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Cat Not Included

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 78
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #770 on: September 02, 2015, 12:44:20 PM »
I've been at this for over ten years, and I'm not entirely convinced there's any such thing as a "typical" HB.  They all have the same basic disdain for science, usually without knowing they do, and they generally have a disdain for the US government--often with the subtext that there is no other government, even when that's logically inconsistent with their other stances--but the way they go about it varies pretty wildly.
Don't forget the strangely frequent trait of being unable to use the "quote" function.

What is up with that? Can they just not accept repeating someone else's words without being able to twist them or take them out of context?
The quote "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" very clearly predates personal computers.

Offline Neil Baker

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #771 on: September 02, 2015, 01:42:09 PM »
I think I understand why most engineers lack integrity or courage. It’s difficult, can cost you your job or career and, consequently, much money.  And also, they might just be rotten people inside (I've met a few of those).
It doesn’t necessarily require silent complicity with something big like a 9-11 or a fraudulent space program for cowardice to be exhibited; some level of engineering cowardice is demonstrated by the majority of engineers on a daily basis.  It can be observed in this thread with most resorting to the desperate measures of name calling, insults and attempted defamation of character after retreating into a metaphysical black hole of self-delusion about “morality” of all things. (Didn’t  see that one coming)
I’ve held many engineering jobs and I’ve witnessed many disgusting displays of cowardice.

I’ve been fired from one job for internally blowing the whistle about illegal activity, nearly fired from one for protesting that a dangerous product was not being recalled (they changed their mind and it was) and laid off from one (defacto firing) for pointing out that the project they were foolishly changing course to pursue would not be competitive or profitable.

Because of a gag order attached to my probation agreement, I can’t write about the firing.

And the near firing before the recall is interesting too but I want to talk about the layoff because I was able to observe a large group of unethical engineers at very close range just like I’m doing now at this thread.

One of the Professional Obligations listed in the Code of Ethics of the National Society of Professional Engineers is:

“Engineers shall advise their clients or employers when they believe a project will not be successful.”

In 2004 after being fired, I found my next job as Test Lead for Infinia Corporation working on a difficult subcontract for Stirling Engine Generators to be used as a power supply both for NASA satellites and the Dept. of Defense(DoD). It was the most challenging job I’ve ever had, most stressful and most enlightening. I’m sure that had I been allowed to continue my engineering career after the layoff that I and my future employer would have benefited greatly from the lessons I learned.  I was laid off after about a year with the company when the top management entered dispute over its subcontract with Lockheed Martin for the NASA generators resulting in no new orders. Then Infinia management announced that they were entering the commercial solar Stirling market with a Stirling engine generator powered by the sun using a parabolic mirror. I had studied Stirling engines and their history in college and knew that the British had unsuccessfully attempted the same thing in Egypt near the beginning of the 20th century.

In my first engineering job out of college at Manville Corp. I was mentored by an old school engineer who had spent most his career at General Motors. I remember that he taught me that a quick way to approximate the cost of a product is by multiplying the product weight by the price of steel. When I did, the cost of the Solar Stirling Generator came out to be about $10/Watt which was very bad news since the price of installed Photovoltaics at that time was about $4/Watt and dropping. The last I read, it’s now down below $2/Watt.

And then there was a meeting of the CEO, Marketing Manager, Head of Engineering and all the lead engineers.  I summoned the courage and presented the CEO with my concerns about the future success of the company and why. His response was to tell me, “Neil, Infinia is not a democracy. Infinia is going to be successful due to superior marketing, not superior engineering.”
I was momentarily dumbstruck. I was in disbelief. Did I just hear what I heard? What’s this guy thinking? Does he think we’re selling a solo-flex rubber band machine to pimply-faced fourteen year olds? Does he really think we can sell Stirling-solar electricity with moving parts to other engineers for $10/Watt when they can buy PV-solar electricity for $4/Watt without moving parts?
But I woke up because I quickly noticed that every other engineer in the room was laughing or giggling like the sycophantic lackeys they all were. I got laid off two days later. The most unethical ones stayed.

I watched the company as it got nearly $200 million in investments and I eventually watched it flail as they grew desperate for more investment. They claimed they got their price down to $7/Watt installed but I could never determine if that included the excavation and very large concrete foundation that anchored the generator.  The life of Infinia was extended by an Import/Export Bank contract to supply generators to India and they got a contract to sell generators to Tooele Army Base in Utah and they sold some locally in Washington State although I can’t find them on GoogleMaps so I have doubts they ever got installed. But eventually as expected Infina declared bankruptcy but not before slithering out of Kennewick, Washington to Utah after winning tax concessions from Washington legislators desperate to have them stay.  The assets of the company were purchased for a song by the Israeli company, Qnergy, operating out of Ogden, Utah. Then I’d discover during my pursuit of employment that my engineering employer before Infinia was defaming, blacklisting and sabotaging my hire elsewhere. What a creepy story.

I read your responses here to there being nothing that could reasonably convince any responsible engineer that a spacesuit or sublimator had ever been in a vacuum chamber since 1966 and I’m creeped out even more. Stop trying to win so much and focus on the truth. You don’t KNOW anything that I don’t KNOW and I don’t KNOW anything. A faith-based space program is unacceptable. Repent for your engineering sins; demand NASA be accountable and stop it with the ridiculous morality deception.

Offline Apollo 957

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #772 on: September 02, 2015, 01:51:20 PM »
I think I understand why most engineers lack integrity or courage. It’s difficult, can cost you your job or career and, consequently, much money.  And also, they might just be rotten people inside (I've met a few of those).
It doesn’t necessarily require silent complicity with something big like a 9-11 or a fraudulent space program for cowardice to be exhibited; some level of engineering cowardice is demonstrated by the majority of engineers on a daily basis. 

Yadda Yadda, until only the last para is on-topic ...

Stop trying to win so much and focus on the truth. You don’t KNOW anything that I don’t KNOW and I don’t KNOW anything. A faith-based space program is unacceptable. Repent for your engineering sins; demand NASA be accountable and stop it with the ridiculous morality deception.

Your doubts about the testing of the sublimator do NOT make the whole programme a 'faith-based' thing. There is AMPLE evidence, in abundance, to the contrary. 

Merely saying photos 'could be' faked, or that other aspects 'could be' artificial, is nought but a big fat nothingness. No proof, no evidence, no facts.

I asked you this already, but what's the worst that happens if a sublimator fails?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 01:56:21 PM by Apollo 957 »

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1601
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #773 on: September 02, 2015, 01:53:45 PM »
Neil, there is evidence, on video and film, of a PLSS with sublimator (several PLSSs, in fact) working in what is clearly a vacuum on the Moon. This is the fifth time of asking and I am anticipating the fifth time of you ignoring it. I don't expect a reply from you, but it does illustrate nicely your level of delusion when you disregard hour upon hour of evidence that something works because you can't find one specific example of something you insist should be available.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1601
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #774 on: September 02, 2015, 01:55:11 PM »
You don’t KNOW anything that I don’t KNOW and I don’t KNOW anything.

And there is the deluded arrogance summed up in your own words, thank you.

I think it's safe to say that I know many things you don't know, and vice versa. And if you don't KNOW anything, what exactly is your substitute for knowledge, since apparently faith is not acceptable?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Apollo 957

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #775 on: September 02, 2015, 02:00:36 PM »
Neil, there is evidence, on video and film, of a PLSS with sublimator (several PLSSs, in fact) working in what is clearly a vacuum on the Moon. This is the fifth time of asking and I am anticipating the fifth time of you ignoring it.

As I've said to Neil, over at YouTube, and here; The Whole Wide World has watched these PLSSs and sublimators in use, in the environment for which they were intended, for 50 years or so.

He ignores it every time. You going to ignore it again, Neil? Or are you going to suggest every spacewalk, moon EVA, etc. was carried out in front of a 'green screen'?

Offline raven

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #776 on: September 02, 2015, 02:28:07 PM »
Neil Baker, let's say you went on a vacation to, oh, Latvia, and brought back photos, video, and souvenirs, kept your ticket stubs, and, naturally, decided to show them to me, and I said, "Yeah, those could be faked. I don't trust the Latvian government, so I'm going to assume they are. I don't think it's impossible to go to Latvia, but I don't know anything about how airplanes work, so I am going to assume no one does."
You would hopefully consider the whole thing quite ludicrous.

Offline Bob B.

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Bob the Excel Guru™
    • Rocket & Space Technology
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #777 on: September 02, 2015, 02:36:40 PM »
I read your responses here to there being nothing that could reasonably convince any responsible engineer that a spacesuit or sublimator had ever been in a vacuum chamber since 1966 and I’m creeped out even more. Stop trying to win so much and focus on the truth. You don’t KNOW anything that I don’t KNOW and I don’t KNOW anything. A faith-based space program is unacceptable. Repent for your engineering sins; demand NASA be accountable and stop it with the ridiculous morality deception.

There is nothing faith-based about it.  The evidence that sublimators work is undeniable.  Only a pigheaded fool would doubt it.

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #778 on: September 02, 2015, 02:47:51 PM »
...

I read your responses here to there being nothing that could reasonably convince any responsible engineer that a spacesuit or sublimator had ever been in a vacuum chamber since 1966 and I’m creeped out even more. Stop trying to win so much and focus on the truth. You don’t KNOW anything that I don’t KNOW and I don’t KNOW anything. A faith-based space program is unacceptable. Repent for your engineering sins; demand NASA be accountable and stop it with the ridiculous morality deception.
You don't know more than I.  You may claim that you don't know anything.  It is more an inability of reasonableness in engineering anticipate results versus anticipated costs.  As I am others have stated the only difference of a space suit with an individual in a vacuum, versus the working end of the sublimator, is nothing more than hoses.  That is all your testing verify, that the hoses don't leak.
Bottom line you don't know what you want concerning sublimators.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #779 on: September 02, 2015, 02:49:32 PM »

There is nothing faith-based about it.  The evidence that sublimators work is undeniable.  Only a pigheaded fool would doubt it.
Indeed as the record has clearly indicated.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan