Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.

[onebigmonkey]

Thing is, if you are interested in aircraft and/or the military, the chances are you would assume that things coming out of a top secret military installation are military aircraft.

If you are pre-disposed to believing in UFOs and are fully engaged with the mythology of Area 51, you are going to be inclined to interpret things differently.

Our erstwhile OP has adopted a mindset that is convinced of government shenanigans. Ergo anything remotely government is suspect. It's the "Governments lie, therefore everything governments say is a lie" angle.

The fact that even the smallest Government half-truth is swiftly exposed as such is irrelevant to the HB mindset. All it needs is a dedicated enough bedroom keyboard warrior...

[Peter B]

Thing is, if you are interested in aircraft and/or the military, the chances are you would assume that things coming out of a top secret military installation are military aircraft.

If you are pre-disposed to believing in UFOs and are fully engaged with the mythology of Area 51, you are going to be inclined to interpret things differently.

Our erstwhile OP has adopted a mindset that is convinced of government shenanigans. Ergo anything remotely government is suspect. It's the "Governments lie, therefore everything governments say is a lie" angle.

The fact that even the smallest Government half-truth is swiftly exposed as such is irrelevant to the HB mindset. All it needs is a dedicated enough bedroom keyboard warrior...

Not only that, but the two independent witnesses he names in the very first post as being acceptable are (former?) soldiers, and thus (former?) government employees, and thus suspect by his very own standards.

[bknight]

Not only that, but the two independent witnesses he names in the very first post as being acceptable are (former?) soldiers, and thus (former?) government employees, and thus suspect by his very own standards.

One of the aspects of both were their disagreement with the Bush administration concerning current policy, but as many have posted even if the test were done and if his witnesses were present, the test would not have been enough.  The purpose was to present that government has lied therefore other activities of the government are drawn into question.

[gillianren]

I looked up once how long Watergate and Iran-Contra had been kept secret, and neither one lasted more than I think eighteen months.  They were on a lot smaller scale than Apollo, too.

[Luke Pemberton]

I looked up once how long Watergate and Iran-Contra had been kept secret, and neither one lasted more than I think eighteen months.  They were on a lot smaller scale than Apollo, too.

Exactly, I've cited those two events too.

[raven]

I looked up once how long Watergate and Iran-Contra had been kept secret, and neither one lasted more than I think eighteen months.  They were on a lot smaller scale than Apollo, too.

Exactly, I've cited those two events too.

Conspiracy theorist: Those were just coverups, man, for the Man's real deal, man.

[Luke Pemberton]

I looked up once how long Watergate and Iran-Contra had been kept secret, and neither one lasted more than I think eighteen months.  They were on a lot smaller scale than Apollo, too.

Exactly, I've cited those two events too.

Conspiracy theorist: Those were just coverups, man, for the Man's real deal, man.

Yeah, they kept the bomb secret too. It was compartmentalised, Apollo was too man.

[bknight]

Yeah, they kept the bomb secret too. It was compartmentalised, Apollo was too man.

Except the KGB knew about it passing that information to Stalin.

[smartcooky]

There were sightings/photos of these objects and one would assume that something was being tested, but the exact information at least wasn't readily available to the general public.  Perhaps the KBG or the Stasi knew about them, but they weren't going to spill the beans to the population.  Rather like when the British broke the Enigma code, they has to keep that secret as well.
Overall I do think it was/is an impossibility to keep a NASA fraud from being uncovered by some investigative reporter at sometime in the last 45+ years.

Keeping a secret (such as a black project) when the whole project is tucked away in a remote location and defended with layer upon layer of security and no-fly zones, is one thing, but keeping a secret when the whole project is in the public domain, and where parts of it are spread not just around the whole of the USA, but over the entire world is another thing entirely

Also, while the US Government were able to successfully keep the detail of what was actually going on in Area 51 secret, word still got out, and there was enough rumour around for aviation experts to get a general idea what was happening. Unlike the general public, they were able to make the general connection between what people were reporting, and aircraft such as this...



Some might wonder why I included the Avro Vulcan in there since it was British and obviously not developed at Area 51. Well, it had quite a secret of its own. While the Vulcan was known to have a low radar profile, this was largely put down to a secret "radar absorbing paint". Yes, they did use a special paint, but by far the greatest contribution to the Vulcan's low radar visibility was its shape, a fact that was not well understood when was first designed and flown back in the 1950's

[Obviousman]

The leading edge of the Vulcan got altered early on in its career; I had believed this was an aerodynamic decision but perhaps it affected its RCS?

Edited to add image below.

[Dalhousie]

The leading edge of the Vulcan got altered early on in its career; I had believed this was an aerodynamic decision but perhaps it affected its RCS?

As I recall, a number of features contributed to the (relatively) low RCS of the Vulcan.  Buried engines, small fuselage (just nose and tail),blended fuselage and wing surfaces (few right angles), comparatively small fin....

The wing planoform changes were mostly to improve the low speed handling properties, as I recall.

The extremely strong structure also meant that the Vulcan could be flown at very low altitude without fatigue problems, unlike the Victor, with it's long, swept back wings. I couldn't find video of operational flights at low level, but here is one flying very low last year....

Because Vulcans are cool, one more

Sorry, back to Apollo

[JayUtah]

One of the aspects of both were their disagreement with the Bush administration concerning current policy...

That's obviously why he chose them.  And of course I highly doubt he actually knows them or has even had any contact with them.  But that makes them non-independent for the other reason.  "Independent" means they have to be acceptable to both sides of the issue.  He choses witnesses he thinks will be favorable to his side because they're also activists.  As my lawyer associates keep reminding me, "You get a jury of your peers, not a jury of your friends."

...but as many have posted even if the test were done and if his witnesses were present, the test would not have been enough.  The purpose was to present that government has lied therefore other activities of the government are drawn into question.

Yes, as we've belabored.  There can be more than one thing wrong with an argument.  Proving that one government agency lied 50 years ago about one thing doesn't prove a different government agency lied ten years ago about a separate thing.  It's just a distraction:  "I can't get any traction for my 9/11 claims or my other crackpottery, so I'm going to shift focus to something I think is easier to argue."  That's because it's ego reinforcement.  It always grasps at low-hanging fruit.

Simultaneously, staging a test for witnesses, in the manner of previously conducted tests, is not the least probative when all other evidence is set aside for reasons that would doom the requested test as well.  Again, it's distraction.  There always has to be one more "reasonable" step that hasn't been taken, so that the proponent can continue to assert the question remains ambiguous.

And by the way, I doubt we'll see any more of Baker.  While he can certainly continue to post on-topic statements, the moderation effectively prevents him from talking about what he really wants to talk about.  And it's not as if he was secretive about his true disinterest in the forum topic.

[bknight]

His latest contribution.

I think Christopher Hitchens said it about as well as anyone. Please take the time to listen.

In essence I agree that he won't be back except for perhaps spurious  posts like the one linked.

[slaver0110]

I've been lurking this thread for a while now, and while I understand the justification for making it clear why Baker has it very wrong (on far too many levels), I can honestly say that this has been another one of those "no point...he's just going to shift the goalposts again...and again...and again...etc" situations.

The way I see it, if Baker got his wish (you know, in that alternate-universe where stupid rules the roost?) and he managed to get his perfect vacuum chamber, with the instrumentation he wants, observed by his preferred "observers", and they test the sublimator under his perfect conditions, I think we're all aware of the final outcome...

His "observers" (if actually honest) would look at him and say, "Yup, no question: the Sublimator works as advertised." At which point he'd simply claim that the infamous NASA DEATH SQUADS had obviously gotten to his observers to keep them from confirming his idea.

[Abaddon]

I've been lurking this thread for a while now, and while I understand the justification for making it clear why Baker has it very wrong (on far too many levels), I can honestly say that this has been another one of those "no point...he's just going to shift the goalposts again...and again...and again...etc" situations.

The way I see it, if Baker got his wish (you know, in that alternate-universe where stupid rules the roost?) and he managed to get his perfect vacuum chamber, with the instrumentation he wants, observed by his preferred "observers", and they test the sublimator under his perfect conditions, I think we're all aware of the final outcome...

His "observers" (if actually honest) would look at him and say, "Yup, no question: the Sublimator works as advertised." At which point he'd simply claim that the infamous NASA DEATH SQUADS had obviously gotten to his observers to keep them from confirming his idea.

Don't be a stranger. Baker may have baked his own noodle, but that's on him.