Author Topic: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.  (Read 476242 times)

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1185 on: November 15, 2015, 07:40:06 PM »
Just had an exchange with someone in the Mars Society FB page, he too brought up space suit cooling.  Which I thought odd, maybe it's the new waving flag of CTs. 

He also raised the usual Van Allen Belt issues, nobody having been above 300 (but insinuated that the ISS is an optical defect and that all EVA video is faked).  Claimed to have been educated as an engineer (but refused to say if he had graduated), went on about the illuminati, refused to give a specific example of what would make him change his mind (other than something verifiable).

Soon resorted to insults and flounced.

You have to wonder what makes someone like that join the Mars Society group, given it is all about the past, present and future exploration of Mars!

Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1186 on: November 15, 2015, 08:04:03 PM »
Just had an exchange with someone in the Mars Society FB page, he too brought up space suit cooling.  Which I thought odd, maybe it's the new waving flag of CTs. 

He also raised the usual Van Allen Belt issues, nobody having been above 300 (but insinuated that the ISS is an optical defect and that all EVA video is faked).  Claimed to have been educated as an engineer (but refused to say if he had graduated), went on about the illuminati, refused to give a specific example of what would make him change his mind (other than something verifiable).

Soon resorted to insults and flounced.

You have to wonder what makes someone like that join the Mars Society group, given it is all about the past, present and future exploration of Mars!
Maybe just a troll?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1187 on: November 15, 2015, 08:44:56 PM »
Actually, I've been curious about spacesuit cooling on Mars.  The porous plate sublimators on on current & past EVA suits rely on vacuum to operate.  Is Mars' atmosphere thin enough to allow them to work, or will we have to find a different way to keep the would-be "Martians" cool while they work?
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1188 on: November 15, 2015, 08:50:43 PM »
Just had an exchange with someone in the Mars Society FB page, he too brought up space suit cooling.  Which I thought odd, maybe it's the new waving flag of CTs. 

He also raised the usual Van Allen Belt issues, nobody having been above 300 (but insinuated that the ISS is an optical defect and that all EVA video is faked).  Claimed to have been educated as an engineer (but refused to say if he had graduated), went on about the illuminati, refused to give a specific example of what would make him change his mind (other than something verifiable).

Soon resorted to insults and flounced.

You have to wonder what makes someone like that join the Mars Society group, given it is all about the past, present and future exploration of Mars!
Maybe just a troll?

He's been there for a while, so a slow starting one if so.  But his own page shows he's into all sorts of wierd stuff.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1189 on: November 15, 2015, 08:53:45 PM »
Actually, I've been curious about spacesuit cooling on Mars.  The porous plate sublimators on on current & past EVA suits rely on vacuum to operate.  Is Mars' atmosphere thin enough to allow them to work, or will we have to find a different way to keep the would-be "Martians" cool while they work?

The pressure over large areas of Mars are below the triple point, so some kind of flash evaporator or sublimator would work.  The large areas of Mars are also above the triple point, so liquid water is possible, although over a very narrow temperature range.  So they probably would work.

Convection does take place under Mars conditions, despite the thin atmosphere, so would be a factor.  Also the insolation is much lower, so cool requirements will not be as stringent as on the Moon.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1190 on: November 17, 2015, 02:32:45 AM »
The pressure over large areas of Mars are below the triple point, so some kind of flash evaporator or sublimator would work.
Even if it works, it would consume a lot of very precious water.
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Also the insolation is much lower, so cool requirements will not be as stringent as on the Moon.
Yes, but a pressure suit has to protect you from both temperature extremes. The usual approach is to insulate you as much as possible, then use active cooling to get rid of the waste heat from astronaut metabolism and PLSS operation. It would be quite a challenge to design a suit that could eliminate waste heat passively while still protecting you from the rather wide temperature swings on Mars.

Also, the fact that Mars has a (thin) atmosphere may interfere with the thermal blankets used as suit insulation. A typical example consists of alternating layers of aluminized Mylar and a Dacron netting. They work in a vacuum much as a Thermos bottle does, with radiation barriers of reflective metals alternating with vacuum gaps to stop convection.

One of the more interesting suit cooling systems I've seen proposed is based on hydride compounds. They usually produce heat when absorbing hydrogen and absorb heat when losing hydrogen, but different alloys do so at different temperatures. The idea is to use one hydride to absorb suit heat at a suitable temperature (e.g., 10C) while absorbing the liberated hydrogen in another material that does so at ambient temperature. You can control the cooling level by regulating the hydrogen flow between them. After the EVA, you heat the second hydride container and cool the first, driving the hydrogen back the other way and regenerating the cooling unit.

I don't know if this has been taken beyond the early prototype stage.

Offline raven

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1191 on: November 17, 2015, 07:00:08 PM »
Given the higher gravity of Mars compared to the moon, a heavier suit is much more of a burden. Mechanical counter-pressure suits might win out.

Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1192 on: November 17, 2015, 07:51:17 PM »
Given the higher gravity of Mars compared to the moon, a heavier suit is much more of a burden. Mechanical counter-pressure suits might win out.
Counter pressure?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline raven

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1193 on: November 17, 2015, 08:27:13 PM »
Given the higher gravity of Mars compared to the moon, a heavier suit is much more of a burden. Mechanical counter-pressure suits might win out.
Counter pressure?
Instead of using a layer of air, using the pressure of a tight fitting garment. Also known as a space activity suit.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1194 on: November 17, 2015, 09:49:40 PM »
Given the higher gravity of Mars compared to the moon, a heavier suit is much more of a burden. Mechanical counter-pressure suits might win out.

In every way they are superior.  Cooling would be by the wearer's sweat, you would probably have opening panels in an outer garment for the wearer to control this.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1195 on: November 17, 2015, 09:54:10 PM »
The pressure over large areas of Mars are below the triple point, so some kind of flash evaporator or sublimator would work.
Even if it works, it would consume a lot of very precious water.

Unlikely to be significantly more than current suits.  Also, unlike LEO and the Moon, local potential water resources are diverse and abundant on Mars.

Quote
Quote
Also the insolation is much lower, so cool requirements will not be as stringent as on the Moon.
Yes, but a pressure suit has to protect you from both temperature extremes. The usual approach is to insulate you as much as possible, then use active cooling to get rid of the waste heat from astronaut metabolism and PLSS operation. It would be quite a challenge to design a suit that could eliminate waste heat passively while still protecting you from the rather wide temperature swings on Mars.

The temperature swings are not as extreme on Mars as on the Moon.

Quote
Also, the fact that Mars has a (thin) atmosphere may interfere with the thermal blankets used as suit insulation. A typical example consists of alternating layers of aluminized Mylar and a Dacron netting. They work in a vacuum much as a Thermos bottle does, with radiation barriers of reflective metals alternating with vacuum gaps to stop convection.

Amazing, people will have to come up with different types of insulation.  Who would have thought it?  Just as well this is something we have decades of experience with already on Mars, and it is something readily tested on Earth.

Quote
One of the more interesting suit cooling systems I've seen proposed is based on hydride compounds. They usually produce heat when absorbing hydrogen and absorb heat when losing hydrogen, but different alloys do so at different temperatures. The idea is to use one hydride to absorb suit heat at a suitable temperature (e.g., 10C) while absorbing the liberated hydrogen in another material that does so at ambient temperature. You can control the cooling level by regulating the hydrogen flow between them. After the EVA, you heat the second hydride container and cool the first, driving the hydrogen back the other way and regenerating the cooling unit.

Might be feasible, depends on it's mass ultimately.  At 38% gravity mass is critical.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 11:00:55 PM by Dalhousie »

Offline Apollo 957

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1196 on: November 19, 2015, 01:17:24 PM »
Neil has poked his head above the parapet at YouTube again; apparently, what happened over here was

"I got censored.
Apollo Hoax and the cowards lurking there don't dare discuss the subject on a level playing field.
First they threatened to ban me if I didn't respond to each and every one of their lame long winded posts.
Then, when I responded they threatened me with expulsion if I dared discuss the motivations for seeking NASA truth.
Then, they baited me by discussing off topic subjects and when I responded to their off topic subject I got censored, not them."

Make of that what you will.....

Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1197 on: November 19, 2015, 01:40:41 PM »
Neil has poked his head above the parapet at YouTube again; apparently, what happened over here was

"I got censored.
Apollo Hoax and the cowards lurking there don't dare discuss the subject on a level playing field.
First they threatened to ban me if I didn't respond to each and every one of their lame long winded posts.
Then, when I responded they threatened me with expulsion if I dared discuss the motivations for seeking NASA truth.
Then, they baited me by discussing off topic subjects and when I responded to their off topic subject I got censored, not them."

Make of that what you will.....
Censorship/moderation is in the eye of the beholder.  Put a message that he was moderated for far different reasons than he listed
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Ishkabibble

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1198 on: November 19, 2015, 02:58:44 PM »
Neil has poked his head above the parapet at YouTube again; apparently, what happened over here was

"I got censored.
Apollo Hoax and the cowards lurking there don't dare discuss the subject on a level playing field.
First they threatened to ban me if I didn't respond to each and every one of their lame long winded posts.
Then, when I responded they threatened me with expulsion if I dared discuss the motivations for seeking NASA truth.
Then, they baited me by discussing off topic subjects and when I responded to their off topic subject I got censored, not them."

Make of that what you will.....
Censorship/moderation is in the eye of the beholder.  Put a message that he was moderated for far different reasons than he listed

I'd be happy to do that if someone would tell me where to find that post...

I can't stand people who ignore the evidence.

I will go back through this entire thread, and list every single question to which he failed to respond, and list every single instance where he completely ignored the evidence presented him, followed by his off-topic rantings.

That ought to tick him off...
You don't "believe" that the lunar landings happened. You either understand the science or you don't.

If the lessons of history teach us any one thing, it is that no one learns the lessons that history teaches...

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1199 on: November 19, 2015, 03:48:48 PM »
"I got censored.

He got moderated after repeated warnings.

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Apollo Hoax and the cowards lurking there don't dare discuss the subject on a level playing field.

A level playing field requires everyone to stick to the subject.  Baker doesn't have a very good track record at estimating the levelness of playing fields.

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First they threatened to ban me if I didn't respond to each and every one of their lame long winded posts.

He was thoroughly refuted but was not competent enough to delve into the required depth.

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Then, when I responded they threatened me with expulsion if I dared discuss the motivations for seeking NASA truth.

He tried to change the subject to 9/11, which was what he admitted his ulterior motive was.

Quote
Then, they baited me by discussing off topic subjects and when I responded to their off topic subject I got censored, not them."

People amused themselves in Baker's absence.  When he returned, the discussion (which he started) should have returned to his points, but he took advantage of the opportunity for distraction.  "I was baited" is a poor excuse for anything.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams