Author Topic: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots  (Read 440201 times)

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #135 on: April 21, 2012, 09:04:15 PM »
I apologize about the exhibit 399 and the slug that fell out of Connally but I thought you guys would have known there was a conflict with this evidence.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 11:20:54 PM by profmunkin »

Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #136 on: April 21, 2012, 09:27:56 PM »
The quote is from Governor Connally's book, the bullet dislodged from Connally's leg and fell to the floor, it and other fragments recovered from his body were given to Nurse Audrey Bell, she sealed them in an brown envelope and gave them to the FBI.
If this is the bullet that hit Connally, what is bullet 399 and where did it come from?
Connally is factually wrong about the discovery of the bullet that hit him. This is hardly surprising given that he was seriously wounded by it and barely conscious when he reached the hospital. He would have likely died without prompt medical attention.

It was found on a gurney (not the floor) by the building engineer (not a nurse) after it had been returned to a hallway (not as he was moved to the operating table). The engineer gave it to a secret service agent.

So why would you quote a severely injured man's subjective account and ignore all the other evidence surrounding the discovery of the bullet? Could that have something to do with your fervent desire that there be a conspiracy?


Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #137 on: April 21, 2012, 09:32:20 PM »
Watch the video, Daniel Sheehan explains what a conspiracy is.
I'm sorry, but someone who thinks intelligent aliens are regularly visiting earth but somehow consistently managing to avoid creating any credible evidence of their presence is not someone who's likely to teach me what a conspiracy is. Or much of anything, for that matter.

Besides, the definition of a conspiracy can be found in any dictionary. It's an agreement by two or more people to commit a crime, often (but not always) followed by at least one overt act (which itself may be legal) by at least one of them in furtherance of the conspiracy.

Edited to add: that the crime of conspiracy does not always require an overt act beyond the agreement to commit a crime in the future.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 09:36:25 PM by ka9q »

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #138 on: April 21, 2012, 09:45:57 PM »
Connally is factually wrong about the discovery of the bullet that hit him. This is hardly surprising given that he was seriously wounded by it and barely conscious when he reached the hospital. He would have likely died without prompt medical attention.

It was found on a gurney (not the floor) by the building engineer (not a nurse) after it had been returned to a hallway (not as he was moved to the operating table). The engineer gave it to a secret service agent.

Maybe you should check this out because Nurse Bell testified to the HSCA that she placed 4 or 5 bullet fragments into an envelope she gave to the FBI.

Also the pristine bullet was found on a stretcher NOT associated with JFK assassination, per the testimony of orderly Darrell Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet.
Also the pristine bullet was clean, it had no trace of blood or tissue on it. It was fired by "Oswald's" Rifle, but had never penetrated flesh, nor penetrated bones.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 11:17:39 PM by profmunkin »

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #139 on: April 21, 2012, 10:20:52 PM »
Dallas Morning News 11/21/1993
District attorney Wade: "I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room, Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on"
Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about?
Wade: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet."
---
Bill Stinson who is in the operating room with Connally tells Nurse Bell to give the bullet to the Police.
Nurse Audrey Bell gives the bullet and fragments to patrolman Nolan, who gave it to the FBI

Question to Nolan: was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet - how large was it?

Bobby M. Nolan: I don't know. It was a - they told me that it was a bullet...nurse just said it was a bullet. (Nolan goes on to describe how big it was) "I'd say uh 2 by 3 inches" (Nolan says 2 by 3? note: the envelope is 3 1/2 by 5" according to Nurse Bell - so Nolan is not describing the dimensions of the envelope.)
 
Warren Commission Exhibit 842 (tiny bullet fragments - the bullet is gone)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 10:53:46 PM by profmunkin »

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #140 on: April 21, 2012, 10:38:37 PM »
Nurse Bell drew pictures of the fragments as she remembered them, but ARRB Chief Counsel Jeremy Gunn refused to take her drawing into evidence.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/medical_interviews/audio/ARRB_Bell.htm

you can listen to her testimony

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #141 on: April 21, 2012, 11:39:59 PM »
How reliable is the FBI?
Richard Dodd (Witnsess - standing on the overpass) FBI report MArch 17, 1964
"He stated he first realized something was wrong when he saw President Kennedy slump forward and simultaneously heard shots ring out. He stated he did not know how many shots were fired, but that the sounds were very close together. Mr. Dodd advised that his attention remained on President Kennedy; he did not look up and did not know where the shots came from."

----
Richard Dodd interview in 'rush to judgment'
"LANE. Did you see anything which might indicate to you where the shots came from?
DODD. Well, we all four seen about the same thing. The shots, the smoke came from behind the hedge on the north side of the plaza. And a motorcycle policeman dropped his motorcycle in the street with his gun in his hand and run up the embankment to the hedge. And then I went North to look around the corner to see if there is anyone behind the hedge and met special agent of the railroad. And he went down there, and I walked along with him to see if there were any tracks there. In which there were tracks and cigarette butts was laying where someone was stranding on the bumper looking over the fence or something.
LANE. Where you questioned by agents of any government agency on November 22, Mr. Dodd.
DODD. Yes, we were. We were taken over to the court house and questioned by I suppose Secret Service men of some kind. Asked me quite a few questions about the same as I’ve told you here today."




Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #142 on: April 21, 2012, 11:53:49 PM »
Over 50 policemen? Citation needed.

'Rush to Judgment" Lee Edward Bowers - railyard tower operator
said police immediately sealed off the railyards "with over 50 police within 3 to 5 minutes"
Just Curious, do you know what he has to say about the shooter at the fence?

It has to make you wonder why 50 police are searching the rail yard in 3 to 5 minutes.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 12:42:34 AM by profmunkin »

Offline Chew

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #143 on: April 22, 2012, 12:02:54 AM »
Over 50 policemen? Citation needed.

'Rush to Judgment" Lee Edward Bowers - railyard tower operator
said police immediately sealed off the railyards "with over 50 police within 3 to 5 minutes"
Just Curious, do you know what he has to say about the shooter at the fence?

Mark Lane, huh? Yeah, he's not a very reliable source. He has been caught misquoting people too many times for me to give him any credibility. He's slightly more credible than Jim Marrs.

Bowers said nothing of value to the Warren Commission about what he saw at the fence.

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #144 on: April 22, 2012, 12:27:22 AM »
Mark Lane, huh? Yeah, he's not a very reliable source. He has been caught misquoting people too many times for me to give him any credibility. He's slightly more credible than Jim Marrs.

Bowers said nothing of value to the Warren Commission about what he saw at the fence.

Bowers said he was cut off by the commission, "I was there to only to tell them just what they asked"
"When they wanted to cut off the conversation, as far as I was concerned that was the end of that"

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #145 on: April 22, 2012, 12:38:14 AM »
Mark Lane, huh? Yeah, he's not a very reliable source. He has been caught misquoting people too many times for me to give him any credibility. He's slightly more credible than Jim Marrs.
Maybe I didn't make it clear, these are filmed or video taped interviews of the witnesses by Mark Lane, he is not quoting anyone, the witnesses speak for themselves.
Don't you know what witnesses actually said or only what in the Warren Commission report?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 12:43:31 AM by profmunkin »

Offline gillianren

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #146 on: April 22, 2012, 01:57:05 AM »
What is the value of eyewitness testimony compared to physical evidence?
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Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #147 on: April 22, 2012, 02:10:54 AM »
Maybe you should check this out because Nurse Bell testified to the HSCA that she placed 4 or 5 bullet fragments into an envelope she gave to the FBI.
Maybe you should check your facts a little more carefully. CE 399 was the bulk of the bullet that passed through JFK's neck and then through Connally. It was found on his gurney. The bullet fragments in the envelope were tiny bits of lead recovered from Connally's wrist during his surgery. They matched the missing bits of the CE399 bullet squeezed out its base.
Quote
Also the pristine bullet was found on a stretcher NOT associated with JFK assassination, per the testimony of orderly Darrell Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet.
Also the pristine bullet was clean, it had no trace of blood or tissue on it. It was fired by "Oswald's" Rifle, but had never penetrated flesh, nor penetrated bones.
Wrong on every count except the name of the guy who found it. (He was the senior building engineer, not an orderly.)

It was far from a "pristine" bullet, though the conspiracists are always extremely careful to never show the end view that reveals just how flattened it was.

This is really getting tiresome. It is so easy to rebut your "facts" with just a little work that it's hard to believe you've done any real research at all outside reading the "conspiracy" literature. Maybe you can get away with this kind of sloppiness with people who don't know anything about the assassination and who, like you, really want to believe there was a conspiracy. But it won't work on anyone who actually checks up on you, and that's most everyone here.

Are you even aware that Oswald used metal-jacketed military ammunition, and the significance of that fact?





Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #148 on: April 22, 2012, 02:19:08 AM »
What is the value of eyewitness testimony compared to physical evidence?
Eyewitness testimony is of enormous value when the physical evidence won't tell you what you want to hear.

When you have literally a thousand eyewitnesses to an enormously significant crime like the JFK assassination, you can always find a few who will tell you exactly what you want to hear. If you want to prove that 12-foot-tall purple-skinned UFO aliens did it with frickin' laser beams, you could probably find someone in Dealy Plaza to tell you just that.

Just be sure you don't mention what anybody else says. Oh, and be sure to hint darkly at how many enemies you've made in powerful circles through your selfless quest for the truth.


« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 02:21:34 AM by ka9q »

Offline Chew

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #149 on: April 22, 2012, 03:07:45 AM »
Mark Lane, huh? Yeah, he's not a very reliable source. He has been caught misquoting people too many times for me to give him any credibility. He's slightly more credible than Jim Marrs.

Bowers said nothing of value to the Warren Commission about what he saw at the fence.

Bowers said he was cut off by the commission, "I was there to only to tell them just what they asked"
"When they wanted to cut off the conversation, as far as I was concerned that was the end of that"

Hogwash. He wasn't about to tell them anything. He didn't see anything that would corroborate a conspiracy.

Quote
Mr. BALL - When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion?
Mr. BOWERS - I just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.
Mr. BALL - You couldn't describe it?
Mr. BOWERS - Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that---
Mr. BALL - Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower?
Mr. BOWERS - A large number of people came, more than one direction. One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another line another large group went across the triangular area between Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them all the way up. Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.
...
Mr. BALL - Is there anything that you told me that I haven't asked you about that you think of?
Mr. BOWERS - Nothing that I can recall.
Mr. BALL - You have told me all that you know about this, haven't you?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I believe that I have related everything which I have told the city police, and also told to the FBI.
Mr. BALL - And everything you told me before we started taking the deposition?
Mr. BOWERS - To my knowledge I can remember nothing else.
Mr. BALL - Now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it, look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish. What do you wish?
Mr. BOWERS - I have no reason to sign it unless you want me to.
Mr. BALL - Would you just as leave waive the signature?
Mr. BOWERS - Fine.
Mr. BALL - Then we thank you very much.