Author Topic: Radiation  (Read 635463 times)

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #705 on: April 02, 2018, 02:52:54 PM »
98% of GCR is comprised of heavy ions and 85% which are protons.

What is the other -83% made from?

Don't you mean 2%?

Particles in Cosmic Rays. Almost 90% of the cosmic rays which strike the Earth's atmosphere are protons (hydrogen nuclei) and about 9% are alpha particles. Electrons amount to about 1% according to Chaisson & McMillan.

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #706 on: April 02, 2018, 03:20:18 PM »
Technically you would be correct.

Technically I am correct, there's no would be about this.


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Different bullet same gun, same result.

It's really unfortunate that you have started comparing nuclear physics with guns, as guns are the domain of Newtonian physics, whereas nuclear and particle physics are the domain of quantum mechanics. So different bullet, different physics, different result.

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How does Spallation reduce the neutron radiation on the surface of the moon?

Didn't say it did. The post you referred to as my pile tells you that I agree with you that the relevant radiation is indeed secondary neutrons. I don't agree with you on the radioactive element.

Bombardment from GCR does not necessary make for swathes of radioisotopes, and if it did, you would need to compute the half life of those isotopes. If the GCR reactions do indeed create radioisotopes in abundance does it necessarily mean these isotopes are radioactive for centuries or millennia?

The scientists in particle accelerators work and maintain equipment that use particles with GCR energies, and that equipment has been exposed to proton beams with far greater fluxes than GCR. Do their detectors become radioactive to the degree where they cannot work on them?

The issue you have is that you do have a different bullet, and while nuclear fragmentation does occur, the main issue with GCR bombardment is the neutron and pion radiation. The interactions that occur between GCR and the target material are known as electromagnetic, mesonic and nucleonic. In nucleonic interactions secondary neutrons are produced as the target nuclei recoil.

What you don't have a grasp on is the way in which particles and nuclei interact at very high energies. Not every interaction is like a billiard ball where the nuclei break up. There are issues that relate to areas of cross section. These cross sections are defined by the Coulomb fields, the energy of bosons and coupling constants rather than geometrical areas.

A proton in the GCR may pass near the nucleus, and quantum interactions take place through bosons. The bosons are force carriers in physics. This could involve a recoil event through the electromagnetic force, or involve spallation, energy loss through bremstrahlung. There are a multitude of events that potentially take place, but these depend very highly on probability density functions that are determined by cross sections of interaction. The latter depends very much on particle energy.

We discussed this way back, but your ideas that every interaction between a proton and a nucleus involve the production of radio isotopes is very far from the real physics

In the case of fission, that is more the domain of heavier elements and thermal; neutron capture, where the fission products are varied and generally associated with heavy elements that have a broad range of radio isotopes.

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GCR's are the source of the neutrons and the radioactivity of the moon's surface.

I agree with the part in bold.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 03:50:25 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

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Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #707 on: April 02, 2018, 03:23:14 PM »
98% of GCR is comprised of heavy ions and 85% which are protons.
What is the other -83% made from?

Don't you mean 2%?


No I was pointing out that your 98% heavy ions and 85% protons adds up to 183%. 98% of GCR is not made up of heavy ions, so I am glad you corrected that to make it more clear what you meant.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 03:28:16 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #708 on: April 02, 2018, 03:24:35 PM »
I could argue the point and explain to you the difference between a linear scale with an exponential axis and a logarithmic scale which is not linear rather it is exponential but I am sure you won't understand the difference so I will let you have it anyway you want to look at it.

Please do explain it. I'd be interested to learn. ANd I certainly would understand the difference thank you.

However, it doesn't make much difference because the actual numbers have been given to you and are there for you to look at, yet you ignore them. Why?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #709 on: April 02, 2018, 03:33:57 PM »
98% of GCR is comprised of heavy ions and 85% which are protons.
What is the other -83% made from?

Don't you mean 2%?


No I was pointing out that your 98% heavy ions and 85% protons adds up to 183%. 98% of GCR is not made up of heavy ions, so I am glad you corrected that to make it more clear what you meant.

You misunderstood.  85%of the ninety eight percent is what they are saying.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #710 on: April 02, 2018, 03:36:27 PM »
I could argue the point and explain to you the difference between a linear scale with an exponential axis and a logarithmic scale which is not linear rather it is exponential but I am sure you won't understand the difference so I will let you have it anyway you want to look at it.

Please do explain it. I'd be interested to learn. ANd I certainly would understand the difference thank you.

However, it doesn't make much difference because the actual numbers have been given to you and are there for you to look at, yet you ignore them. Why?

The difference is one is a linear scale meaning the divisions are equally spaced and the other the division are spaced as a logarithmic function.  The CraTer graph is linear with an exponential axis.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #711 on: April 02, 2018, 03:37:45 PM »
I could argue the point and explain to you the difference between a linear scale with an exponential axis and a logarithmic scale which is not linear rather it is exponential but I am sure you won't understand the difference so I will let you have it anyway you want to look at it.

Please do explain it. I'd be interested to learn. ANd I certainly would understand the difference thank you.

However, it doesn't make much difference because the actual numbers have been given to you and are there for you to look at, yet you ignore them. Why?

The difference is one is a linear scale meaning the divisions are equally spaced and the other the division are spaced as a logarithmic function.  The CraTer graph is linear with an exponential axis.

Thank you. And the answer to my question about the actual numbers being shown to you is...?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #712 on: April 02, 2018, 03:42:15 PM »
You misunderstood.  85%of the ninety eight percent is what they are saying.

Can you begin to see why this is becoming a can of worms for you, as your original post suggested that 98% of GCR are heavy ions?

Protons are not classed as heavy ions. To your merit, you are taking information and putting this into your own words, but your expertise in this field lacks sufficient clarity.

No one here would diminish your service to your country, or your skills as an electrician; but you really need to give this up. You lack the comprehension of the things you read at the moment. I'm not trying to insult you, but genuinely, I have studied this area for over 3 decades. I see so many glaring errors and misinterpretations in your analysis.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #713 on: April 02, 2018, 03:48:02 PM »
So it is recap time once again.

1.  I am wrong in believing Apollo 11"s reported mission daily dose does not represent of an actual lunar transit.
2.  I am wrong in believing the lunar surface is radioactive.
3.  I am wrong in believing that GCR levels have never been recorded lower than .2mgy/day
4.  I am wrong in believing that a transit of 4 hours through the VAB following any path will add a significant radiation dose.
5.  I am wrong in believing that a lunar orbit is a higher exposure rate than travel in deep space and cislunar space.
6.  Finally, I am wrong in believing no lunar mission can have a dose rate less than background radiation of cislunar space.

Did I cover everything?

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #714 on: April 02, 2018, 03:53:46 PM »
I could argue the point and explain to you the difference between a linear scale with an exponential axis and a logarithmic scale which is not linear rather it is exponential but I am sure you won't understand the difference so I will let you have it anyway you want to look at it.

Please do explain it. I'd be interested to learn. ANd I certainly would understand the difference thank you.

However, it doesn't make much difference because the actual numbers have been given to you and are there for you to look at, yet you ignore them. Why?

The difference is one is a linear scale meaning the divisions are equally spaced and the other the division are spaced as a logarithmic function.  The CraTer graph is linear with an exponential axis.

Thank you. And the answer to my question about the actual numbers being shown to you is...?

I have looked at the numbers and I cannot begin to imagine how you believe Apollo 11 could have operated in cislunar space, transited the VAB and landed on the moon and have received only .22 mgy/day.  Each one of those components should have accounted for .22/day.  Consider the Mission dose of Apollo 14.  Now that is a realistic value of a transit to the moon.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #715 on: April 02, 2018, 03:55:47 PM »
So it is recap time once again.

1.  I am wrong in believing Apollo 11"s reported mission daily dose does not represent of an actual lunar transit.

Yes.

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2.  I am wrong in believing the lunar surface is radioactive.

Yes, because you are oversimiplifying it to 'radioactive = dangerous' but have yet to show any quantitative backing up of that claim. Even the sources you use in your arguments state clearly it is not a problem.

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3.  I am wrong in believing that GCR levels have never been recorded lower than .2mgy/day

Dear lord, for the fourth time of asking just by me, why do you keep ignoring the data doing exatly that that you have been shown and which is easily found on the data you brought to the discussion?

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4.  I am wrong in believing that a transit of 4 hours through the VAB following any path will add a significant radiation dose.

Yes, because you continue to ignore the fact that the transit skirted the edge of the belt and did not pass right through te most intense regions.

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5.  I am wrong in believing that a lunar orbit is a higher exposure rate than travel in deep space and cislunar space.

Yes.

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6.  Finally, I am wrong in believing no lunar mission can have a dose rate less than background radiation of cislunar space.

For heaven's sake stop misrepresenting your position. The statement is not wrong, your quantification of the background radiation is wrong. This has been said to you over and over and over again, so why the hell are you constantly falling back on this ridiculous and dishonest statement?

Now, will you PLEASE explain why you are ignoring the numbers that quite clearly ARE showing you CGR rates less than 0.2mGy/day during a solar cycle that was less active than the one during which the Apollo missions flew?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #716 on: April 02, 2018, 03:56:45 PM »
I have looked at the numbers and I cannot begin to imagine how you believe Apollo 11 could have operated in cislunar space, transited the VAB and landed on the moon and have received only .22 mgy/day.

Thag is NOT what I asked. Do you acknowledge that GCR rates less than 0.2mGy/day were recorded in the data you presented to us or not?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #717 on: April 02, 2018, 04:17:44 PM »
I have looked at the numbers and I cannot begin to imagine how you believe Apollo 11 could have operated in cislunar space, transited the VAB and landed on the moon and have received only .22 mgy/day.

Thag is NOT what I asked. Do you acknowledge that GCR rates less than 0.2mGy/day were recorded in the data you presented to us or not?

Show me on this graph where you see a dose rate of less than .2 mgy/day.  I blew it up and still don't see it.  I would have used the graph from 1969 but it was expended when the astronauts ran out of toilet paper.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #718 on: April 02, 2018, 04:23:03 PM »
I am sure I don't understand this but detectors 5 & 6 face the moon and the other 4 detectors face away from the moon.  It is interesting that their levels correspond so closely as if moon radiation doubles lunar orbit radiation and not increases it by 30 to 40 percent.  What do I know?

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #719 on: April 02, 2018, 04:24:07 PM »
I have looked at the numbers and I cannot begin to imagine how you believe Apollo 11 could have operated in cislunar space, transited the VAB and landed on the moon and have received only .22 mgy/day.

Thag is NOT what I asked. Do you acknowledge that GCR rates less than 0.2mGy/day were recorded in the data you presented to us or not?

Show me on this graph where you see a dose rate of less than .2 mgy/day.  I blew it up and still don't see it.  I would have used the graph from 1969 but it was expended when the astronauts ran out of toilet paper.

I have attached a section of data used to plot the graph. I ran the whole set of data through a spreadsheet - in excess of 64000 days worth of data. Not quite the computations that require a computer the size of tennis court, but nonetheless I hope this helps.

There are 6 detectors abroad CRaTER. The green cells highlight those detectors that meet your requirement, the green cells where the dose is greater 0.22 mGy/day. The red cells where the dose is greater 0.22 mGy/day.

On a particular day, the percentage of times when all detectors were below your requirement was 64%. Now remember, this data is taken in cycle 24. Apollo occurred in cycle 20 where solar activity was greater.

The values in the cells are in cGy/day.


« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 04:26:03 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch