Author Topic: Radiation  (Read 635827 times)

Offline nomuse

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1770 on: April 10, 2018, 02:27:57 PM »
I've been thinking of calling it the "Gish Drunkard's Walk."

The really fun thing is how some will apply this in hopes that their audience hasn't a functional long-term memory. Instead of, "Let's get back Claim A," they will drop it back in with a, "Since we've already shown Claim A..."


Offline bknight

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1771 on: April 10, 2018, 02:36:29 PM »
Not to beat a dead horse, but here is the semi-log plot of the RAD instrument:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_assessment_detector

The actual data begins 2011 Dec 06 some 10 days after launch(no cislunar date damn!!!!)
https://pds-ppi.igpp.ucla.edu/search/view/?f=yes&id=pds://PPI/MSL-M-RAD-2-EDR-V1.0/DATA/CRUISE/2011/340

From the graph, in spite of the relatively huge points on the graph, one can clearly see data below .3 and some points approaching .1


Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline nomuse

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1772 on: April 10, 2018, 02:47:23 PM »
For me, as interested as I was in space sciences, I hadn't paid particular attention to Apollo. I was of the generation that thought of it as a stepping stone and my dreams were full of...well, mostly habitats, with their lovingly depicted suburbia slash industrial parks lining the inside of improbably sized cylinders and toroids.

So I was exposed to the hoax from the hoax side. It was...unconvincing. They made statements which were clearly contrary to basic geometry and optics, exposed clear and obvious pareidolia...plus the general presentation was mawkish. Then I hit the first skeptic site and the explanations were so well-formed they convinced almost by the sheer strength of their understanding of the material and ability to speak about it clearly and precisely.

I am with those that say the hoax belief starts with a propensity. The typical arc of the hoax believer seems to be to run into something --despite their narratives to the contrary, often demonstrably from a secondary source.

The difference being, when that first claim is thrown into question, they don't open up the question to ask if perhaps there wasn't a hoax after all. Instead they quickly grasp for other, stronger supports of what they've decided on without prior evidence.

For me, the big impact was not in the minutia, but in the larger picture. On a photo-by-photo basis you can quibble forever, and, yes, I did entertain thoughts that a hoax might have been possible. Until I took a step back and thought about the program itself. It isn't a couple guys in a spacecraft somewhere remote that brought a couple pictures back.

It was a massive public program, seated firmly in an ongoing history of the space sciences and aeronautical engineering. Every bit of behavior of materials or thermodynamics or whatever isn't some unique thing that only happened once out of sight of most of humanity; it is something analogous to behaviors experienced daily in thousands of industries, and linked by robust and quantified physical understanding to basic properties that are at the root of everything we understand and can do.

It isn't too much to say that if the thermodynamics claims of the hoax believers were correct, I wouldn't have been able to do some of the things I have personally done with hot metals. You can't draw some bright line between the physics happening on the Moon and the physics happening in your kitchen. The only thing you can do is fail to understand the underlying physics...and that is something the hoax believers demonstrate daily.

One can make similar points about the way the project was organized funded vetted inspected and reported on, or how the activities of the spacecraft were observed. In fact, I can not think of a single aspect of Apollo (at least, not one that has received focus from the hoax believers) that doesn't fall into the trap of requiring ten thousand people (and all the literature they produce) in some completely different field to be either lying, incompetent, or both.

Offline bobdude11

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1773 on: April 10, 2018, 03:38:51 PM »
It is merely a thing of curiosity.

Then it won't matter if no one answers you.

Quote
Is there harm in asking?

All the other conspiracy theorists who come here and ask the same question have had one of a small number of ulterior motives in asking it.  So you tell me what harm you might intend by asking it.

My, my, we are defensive.  I am in the far corner of the country and I am old and harmless.  I am a threat to a beer bottle but that is the extent of it.  I am just trying to get a feel for the nature of the group.  So tell me.  What conspiracy do you fancy?
Well, do you still kick your dog?
Robert Clark -
CISSP, MISM, MCSE and some other alphabet certifications.
I am moving to Theory ... everything works in Theory
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Offline benparry

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1774 on: April 10, 2018, 03:50:08 PM »
Ok guys I have found the group. It is simply called the moon landing hoax.if you search my name it comes up with at least 1 chat between me and tim

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1775 on: April 10, 2018, 03:56:18 PM »

I'd actually be really happy if an outsider to the last couple days could go back over the graph discussion and be able to say, "oh, yes, I see now. That's what the difference is." Perhaps even contribute a new way, an analogy that Tim might be able to grasp?

Well here is one for you

The logarithmic scale goes (for example 1, 10, 100, 1000; or more correctly 100, 101 102 103 etc) even though the major intervals on the graph appear physically to be equally spaced. Now, I saw timfinch complain that the minor intervals (the bits in between) were equally spaced and therefore it must be a linear scale... but if the major intervals were equally spaced, why would that not also apply to the minor intervals?

(I hope this makes sense) 
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline benparry

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1776 on: April 10, 2018, 04:14:44 PM »

Offline nomuse

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1777 on: April 10, 2018, 04:22:33 PM »
My thinking goes muddy every time I try to go down the rabbit hole of a log graph with linear material between the major indexes. Obviously the vales plot differently. Presumably all data can still be plotted; since the index line marked "10" has an index line marked "100" above it, then if you added ten finer division lines they would be 20, 30, 40... not 11, 12, 13.

The only difference, then, is the spacing of these subdivision lines. The lines being of course arbitrary; they don't constrain data, they just make it easier run your eye straight across.

So...at this point I can't do it without some lined paper...what's a nice example number that's clearly and obviously in a different spot?

Offline bknight

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1778 on: April 10, 2018, 04:44:38 PM »
here is a link to the group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1090895674258943/about/

Well, I found both of you in the thread, but didn't find any interaction between you guys.
However all of tim's post that I did read were more or less a copy of what he posted here.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1779 on: April 10, 2018, 04:47:38 PM »
...but if the major intervals were equally spaced, why would that not also apply to the minor intervals?

(I hope this makes sense)

I hope my answer makes sense. Take the minor intervals between 10 and 100. They correspond to 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90.

Now take Log 10 = 1
Now take Log 100 = 2

I can say that 10 is placed on on the major grid line 1, which is labelled 101. 100 is placed on major grid line 2 which is labelled 102.

So how do I space the multiples of 10 between 10 and 100? I scale them as minor units as a log function spaced in between the two major scales that represent 10 and 100, the latter two numbers are equidistant on paper.

Log 20 = 1.30
Log 30 = 1.48
Log 40 = 1.60
Log 50 = 1.70
Log 60 = 1.78
Log 70 = 1.85
Log 80 = 1.90
Log 90 = 1.95

As you can see, 20 is scaled at distance of 1.3. If you distribute 10n linearly, the numbers in between are not distributed linearly. You scale them to a log function shown above. You don't scale the data according to a log function.

You plot the data, unmodified, against the scale you've defined according to a log function, and I think this part was confusing Tim. He thought the graph was linear, so if that was the case, one had to convert the data using a log to fit it to a linear scale. Now I'm thinking about it, I think he may have been trying to suggest two things: (a) the CRaTER data was already a log of the original data to fit it against a linear scale or (b) one had to take a log of the CRaTER data to fit it to a linear scale.

I've never heard of (a) or (b) being performed, and if (b) then the data would be negative and the CRaTER graph has no negative numbers. Bottom line is that the dots are the x-minors as shown by Jason's blow up.

Note: Edited for clarity as member theteacher was replying.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 05:54:59 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline benparry

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1780 on: April 10, 2018, 05:01:34 PM »
here is a link to the group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1090895674258943/about/

Well, I found both of you in the thread, but didn't find any interaction between you guys.
However all of tim's post that I did read were more or less a copy of what he posted here.

bknight you didn't look very far. search for my name at the top and the very first time I appear is with tim

Offline theteacher

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1781 on: April 10, 2018, 05:23:12 PM »
...but if the major intervals were equally spaced, why would that not also apply to the minor intervals?

(I hope this makes sense)

I hope my answer makes sense. Take the minor intervals between 10 and 100. They correspond to 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90.

Now take Log 10 = 1
Now take Log 100 = 2

I can say that 10 is places on square 1, which is labelled 101. 100 is placed on square 2 which is labelled 102. So how do I place minor unit on the square to scale 20, 30... etc?

So I have to scale my minor units as a log function spaced in between the two major scales that represent 10 and 100 which are equidistant on paper. So how do I space the multiples the units of 10 between 10 and 100.

Log 20 = 1.30
Log 30 = 1.48
Log 40 = 1.60
Log 50 = 1.70
Log 60 = 1.78
Log 70 = 1.85
Log 80 = 1.90
Log 90 = 1.95

As you can see, 20 is scaled at 1.3 squares, and 30 is almost half way between 10 and 100 at 1.48 squares. The lines then get closer for each increment of 10. Logs are not linear, therefore, if you distribute 10n linearly, the numbers in between are not.

I made post #1190 to point to that fact, because the smaller divisions are not helpful. On the contrary they are disturbing, and I cannot understand why the graph displaying the CRaTER data are drawn on that specific grid.

I guess it could be helpful to regard a so called "graph" as consisting of 3 different levels: 1: The background, 2: The coordinate system and 3: The graph itself.

The background is in itself meaningless. it can be helpful or it can be confusing.

The graph itself is uninterpretable without a coordinate system.

So what matters is the coordinate system consisting of two (or three) axes, their orientation and their units. This system defines, how the graph must be interpreted. The coordinate system can be drawn on a blank background, but some lines parallel to the axes may of cause be helpfull, though not mandatory.

So my point is, that the lines, that divide the units on the y-axis in the CRaTER "graph" (for short) in smaller increments, are not helpfull. They are meaningless and confusing as the y-axis is logarithmic. So why are they there? I guess they are no problem to the scientifically literates, but I guess I understand why they become an obstacle to the lay person - willfully ignorant or not.

Just my two cents.

(Edited for spelling)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 05:26:16 PM by theteacher »

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1782 on: April 10, 2018, 05:34:34 PM »
Just my two cents.

A valuable 2 cents. I don't find a log scale terribly intuitive immediately and I have to sit and ponder, but that's the nature of reading graphs. They are meant to make one think, as all they present are a visual of the data. I actually prefer them with the minor division as it helps me determine the numbers. To a lay person I can see why they are confusing.

I heavily edited my last post while you were replying, so it reads differently. I read it a few times and thought my explanation was still not clear.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 05:47:23 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline theteacher

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1783 on: April 10, 2018, 05:50:31 PM »
Just my two cents.

A valuable 2 cents. I don't find a log scale terribly intuitive immediately and I have to sit and ponder, but that's the nature of reading graphs. They are meant to make one think, as all they present are a visual of the data. I actually prefer them with the minor division as it helps me determine the numbers. To a lay person I can see why they are confusing.

I heavily edited my last post while you were replying, so it reads differently. I read it a few times and thought my explanation was still not clear.

I found your post exactly to the point  :)

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #1784 on: April 10, 2018, 06:06:30 PM »
I'm sure someone else did this, possibly nomuse, Jason or Raven. Plotting exactly the same data, same scale and simply omitting the minor grid lines.

Scaled this way, 2, 20, 200, 2000 etc are almost half way between the major scales of 10n.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch