Author Topic: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.  (Read 92910 times)

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #120 on: January 05, 2017, 08:30:05 PM »
So here's a very specific question relating to the Blad.

These images seem very soft, for a very high end medium format.  Especially shooting at f11 with a 250thsec exposure.

Can anyone explain to me why the foreground and background are so soft at f11?

I shoot landscapes at a hyperfocal distance using f11 to f16 and it's all in focus.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #121 on: January 05, 2017, 08:33:55 PM »
If what you have said above can be considered as Fact, and I believe it to be, then how come the stars move?

Still hung up on them being stars. If everything said can be considered fact, then the fact that they objects do move shows they are not stars.

Sigh.....No, it's doesn't!

It proves, all other things being true, that if the stars are real, the photo's are fake!  If the shadow doesn't move inthe foreground it means 1 of two things.  The image were taken moments apart, or the light is in a fixed position on earth and nothing hs moved, but the sky.  Until it's proven they are not stars, it's all open.  To me at least.

Wait, what?

You are aware the Earth takes about 24 hours to rotate once, right? If two consecutive pictures were taken a full hour apart the background stars would move about 15 degrees. Given the wide angle of the lens/film combination, if Orion appeared in one shot, it would still appear in another shot taken 3-4 hours later!

No, the stars do not whirl about rapidly. Nor do they do so randomly.

Here's a better test for you, by the way. FIND CONSTELLATIONS. If you can match up the dots your image manipulation is coming up with, you might actually have something to work on. This is how Venus was identified (to at least a high degree of plausibility) in a couple of Apollo pics.

Your scenario is ludicrous. For the background stars to shift so much the same patterns could not be discerned between pairs, either they were taking 6-hour breaks between consecutive shots and getting all the astronauts back in the same positions again to continue, or they were picking up every rock and piece of equipment and locating them in exactly the same arrangement (as can and has been verified photogrammetrically) only with the camera now at a different and opposed cardinal point.

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #122 on: January 05, 2017, 08:36:36 PM »
I'm not sure how to proceed here.  I visited a NASA archive.  I looked through a series of images.  I found 2 that were numerically consecutive and of the same subject matter, differing only in angle by a degree or two.

These were compressed JPEG images I assume?
Quote
what were?  The images on Apollo site?  No idea!  Hi Res scans though.

I wanted to research the 'Why No Stars in Moon pics' theory.  I am a Professional Photographer.

I am a photographer and have done a lot of astro-photography, and in doing so it is very very obvious to me why there would be no stars in photographs taken with the directly sunlit lunar surface in frame.
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I know why there aren't any stars.  I've over exposed the images to see if any details are revealed.  However I am not an avid Asto Tog.  This is not my purpose for posting.  I'm hoping to reveal details in the photos'.  I can shoot the moon here on earth.  Exposing correclty even at a shot shutter I can see the moon and the stars.

Although the images were taken moments apart (evident only by the foreground shadows not changing at all) the stars in the sky were completely different.

Why did you assume these were stars?

It's Space.  Black and empty.  Devoid of an atmosphere.  Why would I assume they weren't stars??

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #123 on: January 05, 2017, 08:41:11 PM »
If what you have said above can be considered as Fact, and I believe it to be, then how come the stars move?

Still hung up on them being stars. If everything said can be considered fact, then the fact that they objects do move shows they are not stars.

Sigh.....No, it's doesn't!

It proves, all other things being true, that if the stars are real, the photo's are fake!  If the shadow doesn't move inthe foreground it means 1 of two things.  The image were taken moments apart, or the light is in a fixed position on earth and nothing hs moved, but the sky.  Until it's proven they are not stars, it's all open.  To me at least.

Wait, what?

You are aware the Earth takes about 24 hours to rotate once, right? If two consecutive pictures were taken a full hour apart the background stars would move about 15 degrees. Given the wide angle of the lens/film combination, if Orion appeared in one shot, it would still appear in another shot taken 3-4 hours later!

No, the stars do not whirl about rapidly. Nor do they do so randomly.

Here's a better test for you, by the way. FIND CONSTELLATIONS. If you can match up the dots your image manipulation is coming up with, you might actually have something to work on. This is how Venus was identified (to at least a high degree of plausibility) in a couple of Apollo pics.

Your scenario is ludicrous. For the background stars to shift so much the same patterns could not be discerned between pairs, either they were taking 6-hour breaks between consecutive shots and getting all the astronauts back in the same positions again to continue, or they were picking up every rock and piece of equipment and locating them in exactly the same arrangement (as can and has been verified photogrammetrically) only with the camera now at a different and opposed cardinal point.

Quote
O....M....G.....That's my point!!!  they HAD to be taken immediately AFTER each other as the foreground shadows haven't changed in the two images!!! If a long time had passed not only would the foreground shadows have changed but also any 'Stars'......Are you even reading the rest of this thread and examining the pics?  My entire poin is that if what I had seen were stars, it would suggest a huge passing of time as the stars in the sky inthe next pic had changed so unrecognisably, yet the foreground shadows were exactly the same, then it would have to be a fake!!!!! Feck Me give me strength lol

Offline nomuse

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #124 on: January 05, 2017, 08:42:36 PM »


I can't prove anyhting here on earth.  Light pollution and atmospheric particles won't allow it.  However in the cleanness and vacuum of space, it must account for something?

There's an assumption here that needs to be unpacked.

Is it possible to shoot stars? Yes.

It is possible to shoot stars with slow (ASA 125) film?  Possibly.

These are not in dispute.

The Apollo Surface Photographs, however, were taken with modified Hasselblads with a very specific set of settings optimized towards photographing landscape and equipment. The astronauts had several marked exposures, much as cheap analog consumer cameras back in the day might have a "sunny 16" and a picture of a cloud as click-stops. The vast majority of photographs taken with the lunar Hasselblads used one of these settings.

No part of the operation of surface photography with the lunar Hasselblads leant itself to capturing stars. It was not the intent, and it was not the result.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #125 on: January 05, 2017, 08:46:27 PM »
If what you have said above can be considered as Fact, and I believe it to be, then how come the stars move?

Still hung up on them being stars. If everything said can be considered fact, then the fact that they objects do move shows they are not stars.

Sigh.....No, it's doesn't!

It proves, all other things being true, that if the stars are real, the photo's are fake!  If the shadow doesn't move inthe foreground it means 1 of two things.  The image were taken moments apart, or the light is in a fixed position on earth and nothing hs moved, but the sky.  Until it's proven they are not stars, it's all open.  To me at least.

Wait, what?

You are aware the Earth takes about 24 hours to rotate once, right? If two consecutive pictures were taken a full hour apart the background stars would move about 15 degrees. Given the wide angle of the lens/film combination, if Orion appeared in one shot, it would still appear in another shot taken 3-4 hours later!

No, the stars do not whirl about rapidly. Nor do they do so randomly.

Here's a better test for you, by the way. FIND CONSTELLATIONS. If you can match up the dots your image manipulation is coming up with, you might actually have something to work on. This is how Venus was identified (to at least a high degree of plausibility) in a couple of Apollo pics.

Your scenario is ludicrous. For the background stars to shift so much the same patterns could not be discerned between pairs, either they were taking 6-hour breaks between consecutive shots and getting all the astronauts back in the same positions again to continue, or they were picking up every rock and piece of equipment and locating them in exactly the same arrangement (as can and has been verified photogrammetrically) only with the camera now at a different and opposed cardinal point.

Quote
O....M....G.....That's my point!!!  they HAD to be taken immediately AFTER each other as the foreground shadows haven't changed in the two images!!! If a long time had passed not only would the foreground shadows have changed but also any 'Stars'......Are you even reading the rest of this thread and examining the pics?  My entire poin is that if what I had seen were stars, it would suggest a huge passing of time as the stars in the sky inthe next pic had changed so unrecognisably, yet the foreground shadows were exactly the same, then it would have to be a fake!!!!! Feck Me give me strength lol

I believe (after much effort) I understood your point. I have already moved on to the next step; showing why your point is ridiculous.

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #126 on: January 05, 2017, 08:49:49 PM »


I can't prove anyhting here on earth.  Light pollution and atmospheric particles won't allow it.  However in the cleanness and vacuum of space, it must account for something?

There's an assumption here that needs to be unpacked.

Is it possible to shoot stars? Yes.

Quote
Yey  :P So my point is this then.  It is possible or likely that if we were to over expose these slides, negatives, or even the Jpegs themsels, could we reveal extra info? Such as Stars?  (Already aware of Jpeg compression, but these are not Digital in origin.  They are Film.  the level of detail to be obtained will be dependant on the quality of the scan; if it was a scan of a photo and not the original negative.

It is possible to shoot stars with slow (ASA 125) film?  Possibly.

These are not in dispute.

The Apollo Surface Photographs, however, were taken with modified Hasselblads with a very specific set of settings optimized towards photographing landscape and equipment. The astronauts had several marked exposures, much as cheap analog consumer cameras back in the day might have a "sunny 16" and a picture of a cloud as click-stops. The vast majority of photographs taken with the lunar Hasselblads used one of these settings.

Quote
What possible changes do you think could or would need to be made to make these cameras 'Special'.  Is taking pics on the moon any different to pics on a Beach for instance?

No part of the operation of surface photography with the lunar Hasselblads leant itself to capturing stars. It was not the intent, and it was not the result.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 09:01:20 PM by Icarus1 »

Offline nomuse

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #127 on: January 05, 2017, 09:06:18 PM »
I think I've finally navigated your various unstated assumptions to reconstruct a scenario you wish to test.

In this scenario, a film crew sets up outdoors during a clear night, using artificial lighting to simulate sunlight. They did not intend to capture any of those background stars (why, then, film outdoors at all?) and they filmed each EVA over a number of nights, making it possible for movement of the background stars to slip through their otherwise rigorous continuity. They did not realize that the emulsion and developing would retain enough data to survive through third-party digital scans that likewise did not expect to capture stars.

I do need to re-iterate that this requires a difference on the order of six hours or more between apparently consecutive pictures; having Scott with his left hand on the gamma-ray spectrometer at 5:00 AM on Tuesday's shoot and at 10 PM on Wednesday's shoot, and everything else in exactly the same place as well.

Is this essentially what you are looking for?

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #128 on: January 05, 2017, 09:14:16 PM »
erm....... No; not really.

I just want proof that those spots aren't stars....................

but you know what I've just found?  A link to Flickr where Nasa have a bunch of Hi Res Un-processed images..................SHOWING STARS!!!!!!!!

OR, dust, gamma, xrays, radiation, charged particles, advanced Star trek photon torpedo's  you name it.

What are in these images then?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/21672034272/in/album-72157658638144538/

Offline nomuse

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #129 on: January 05, 2017, 09:24:05 PM »
Here's the problems I have with this scenario:

1) Physics. Actually, the artificial-light scenario makes it slightly more plausible that stars would slip through; the brightest film light is something like a magnitude below full sunlight. The scanning stage would not seem to admit it, however. There is no point in comparing motion as against what would actually be seen in surface pictures, or questions how much motion would be seen in surface pictures; these are false trails, red herrings. No stars would be visible in actual surface images, period.

2) Continuity. I find it hard to believe you could get everything set up the same. I also wouldn't want to try. It makes more sense to simply shoot an EVA in one go. You make the same mistake most hoax believers do, in looking at pictures as if they can be taken in isolation. The majority of the surface record is duplicated in master shot via the video and the 16mm DAC, and it can be tracked quite closely to mission records and recorded audio.

The point being that all of these MATCH. It is ridiculous to presume lunar Hasselblad images being produced out of order or otherwise in any ad hoc one-by-one method, when what the same scenes are documented in contiguous video. The only rational way for a fake to have proceeded is to shoot the actual footage in real time on the stage. Anything else is a continuity nightmare beyond the capabilities of the time to master.

3) Stars. Stars are not random. They are not noise, they are not patterns that are either there or not there. ONE STAR moving or changing from one plate to another gave us new planets, nova, and the entire freaking stellar distance ladder that told us we are in one galaxy among a multitude. If there are stars, there are patterns. If there are patterns, there are the familiar constellations. Full stop.

It is not possible in any scenario for more than a handful of stars to show up on an image and not be able to match those to a specific location in the celestial globe. Focusing on whether the same pattern shows up or not is another red herring. The patterns that show up will tell the story. You see Orion? You know where and when the picture was taken.

4) There's more than sky. The vast majority of the lunar surface record shows something beyond foreground objects and dark sky. There are distant features. Your scenario not only fails to include these, but any expansion of how these distant features were included instantly throws the entire "filming outdoors at night" scenario into the dustbin.


In short, you are chasing false problems and sowing confusion.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #130 on: January 05, 2017, 09:28:02 PM »
erm....... No; not really.

I just want proof that those spots aren't stars....................

but you know what I've just found?  A link to Flickr where Nasa have a bunch of Hi Res Un-processed images..................SHOWING STARS!!!!!!!!

OR, dust, gamma, xrays, radiation, charged particles, advanced Star trek photon torpedo's  you name it.

What are in these images then?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/21672034272/in/album-72157658638144538/

The proof is physics.

The most direct proof is that the film and settings can not have captured stars.

The best test of this proof is that Venus is marginally possible, and when looked for, appeared in exactly the predicted position.

"Star" is a specific term. So is cosmic ray damage. Each has specific predictable behaviors. You can't mix them, and mix in dust and fantasy, and think you are making a coherent argument.

Offline bknight

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2017, 09:29:46 PM »
Not that Icarus1 will see this, but in:
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5950HR.jpg

Quote
Why would you assume i wont see this?  I count over 16 dots of interest in the first image using my eye alone.

There are several artifacts that I observe without tinkering with any setting on both sides of the LM.  Knowing that they are not stars, I suspect either compression artifacts or comic rays working into the emulsion.

There are only one in:
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5949HR.jpg
right of Buzz's antenna

Quote
There are certainly more than one in this image!
Did you read "without tinkering"?  You may be able to see more, but I can only identify one, and that was what was described.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline nomuse

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2017, 09:30:37 PM »
Incidentally, your flicker series (how I bloody hate argument by "look at this picture and doesn't it look like X?") is post-EVA, ORBITAL pictures. Aka taken from inside a space capsule through the window. Not comparable in any way to pictures taken on the surface during EVA.

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #133 on: January 05, 2017, 09:33:04 PM »
erm....... No; not really.

I just want proof that those spots aren't stars....................

but you know what I've just found?  A link to Flickr where Nasa have a bunch of Hi Res Un-processed images..................SHOWING STARS!!!!!!!!

OR, dust, gamma, xrays, radiation, charged particles, advanced Star trek photon torpedo's  you name it.

What are in these images then?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/21672034272/in/album-72157658638144538/

Yeah. There are even stars in lunar shadows, the shadow of the Lunar Module and the LM's window frame. Stars everywhere.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 09:36:29 PM by AtomicDog »
"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death." - Isaac Asimov

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2017, 09:37:24 PM »
Here's the problems I have with this scenario:

1) Physics. Actually, the artificial-light scenario makes it slightly more plausible that stars would slip through; the brightest film light is something like a magnitude below full sunlight. The scanning stage would not seem to admit it, however. There is no point in comparing motion as against what would actually be seen in surface pictures, or questions how much motion would be seen in surface pictures; these are false trails, red herrings. No stars would be visible in actual surface images, period.

2) Continuity. I find it hard to believe you could get everything set up the same. I also wouldn't want to try. It makes more sense to simply shoot an EVA in one go. You make the same mistake most hoax believers do, in looking at pictures as if they can be taken in isolation. The majority of the surface record is duplicated in master shot via the video and the 16mm DAC, and it can be tracked quite closely to mission records and recorded audio.

The point being that all of these MATCH. It is ridiculous to presume lunar Hasselblad images being produced out of order or otherwise in any ad hoc one-by-one method, when what the same scenes are documented in contiguous video. The only rational way for a fake to have proceeded is to shoot the actual footage in real time on the stage. Anything else is a continuity nightmare beyond the capabilities of the time to master.

3) Stars. Stars are not random. They are not noise, they are not patterns that are either there or not there. ONE STAR moving or changing from one plate to another gave us new planets, nova, and the entire freaking stellar distance ladder that told us we are in one galaxy among a multitude. If there are stars, there are patterns. If there are patterns, there are the familiar constellations. Full stop.

It is not possible in any scenario for more than a handful of stars to show up on an image and not be able to match those to a specific location in the celestial globe. Focusing on whether the same pattern shows up or not is another red herring. The patterns that show up will tell the story. You see Orion? You know where and when the picture was taken.

4) There's more than sky. The vast majority of the lunar surface record shows something beyond foreground objects and dark sky. There are distant features. Your scenario not only fails to include these, but any expansion of how these distant features were included instantly throws the entire "filming outdoors at night" scenario into the dustbin.


In short, you are chasing false problems and sowing confusion.

I am merely playing Devils Advocate in a search for truth. 

Well done on your full bodied response, though it's a little off in what I'm hoping to achieve.

It's obviously me because I've suffered this my whole life; I've no problem putting my hand up to ask questions, but my cavalier attitude is often mistaken for hypocrisy or mocking.  I'm not trying to.  The art of asking questions and taking in answers from the many is so complex, it's bewildering how a person is expected to absorb so much information from so many sources, delivered by so many personalities and characters.  I'm what you would call and Emapth.  I read between the lines to get an idea of the character and intention of the speaker.  I'm more of an observer of people than a leader.  I stir the nest and step back usually, finding answers in the chaos.  I actually have no definitive answers of my own.  Everything is open for re-examination.

Thank you for coming this far. :D