Author Topic: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.  (Read 92907 times)

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #165 on: January 06, 2017, 07:18:23 AM »
Morning or Afternoon everyone.  It's 12pm here in the UK.

I conceded this long ago.  Maybe I was too subtle.  Thanks for your effort on this matter.

It's Dust!

All the best.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 08:22:41 AM by Icarus1 »

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #166 on: January 06, 2017, 09:09:13 AM »
Oh YEAH?!  Well I think they're cosmic ray hits, SO THERE!!!

;)
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #167 on: January 06, 2017, 09:30:03 AM »
Oh YEAH?!  Well I think they're cosmic ray hits, SO THERE!!!

;)

:D Thanks for taking part. 

I've a lot of work ahead of me to attain this knowledge.   It's obviously too much for me to take in over night.

This is a long thread and could potentially go on for years if I keep asking questions and peeps keep coming back with answers.  What I have never seen is a full catalogue of original pics or video.  That would be interesting, and I've never looked in to this until recently so finding Flickr Archives and the Apollo archives has been great.

Kirk out!

Offline Apollo 957

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #168 on: January 06, 2017, 09:40:16 AM »
I've a lot of work ahead of me to attain this knowledge.   It's obviously too much for me to take in over night.

What I have never seen is a full catalogue of original pics or video.

Apollo Image Library.

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/picture.html

Project Apollo Image Gallery

http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html

The Project Apollo Archive, including the above gallery

http://www.apolloarchive.com/

The experiences of a NASA tech who worked on suits and PLSS systems

http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum38/HTML/001957-12.html

The Lunar Sourcebook

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/books/lunar_sourcebook/



That should keep you going. Meanwhile, a thought from a fellow Brit -

Don't let the side down, old chap.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 09:46:14 AM by Apollo 957 »

Offline Allan F

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #169 on: January 06, 2017, 09:55:34 AM »
Sorry to jump in so late in the thread. Couldn't be bothered to read it all.

I'd like to show two pictures, taken with the same camera.

https://500px.com/photo/144719533/the-milky-way-by-allan-folmersen?ctx_page=2&from=user&user_id=5551450

Please note this is an unedited photo - and you can see the EXIF data at the right. f:3.5, ISO 12800 and shutterspeed 30s

Then there's this:

https://500px.com/photo/160804883/morning-on-the-shoreline-by-allan-folmersen?ctx_page=2&from=user&user_id=5551450

The EXIF is 1/1000s, f:4.5 and ISO 100.

In the first picture, stars are visible. In the second picture, they are not.

The difference in exposure between those two pictures are:

(30/(1/1000))= 30.000 (shutterspeed)
12800/100    = 128
And half an F-stop. Let's not bother with that.

But the two other factors are 3.84 MILLION to 1. No camerasystem, no photographic film EVER has that dynamic range. THAT is where Icarus1's claim fails.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #170 on: January 06, 2017, 10:05:29 AM »

I've a lot of work ahead of me to attain this knowledge.   It's obviously too much for me to take in over night.

This is a long thread and could potentially go on for years if I keep asking questions and peeps keep coming back with answers.  What I have never seen is a full catalogue of original pics or video.  That would be interesting, and I've never looked in to this until recently so finding Flickr Archives and the Apollo archives has been great.

Stick around. There's a lot that can be learned from here.

Have a browse of the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal and the Apollo Flight Journal. There's enough information and reading in there to keep any mere mortal occupied for years.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Allan F

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #171 on: January 06, 2017, 10:15:57 AM »
Every frame of Apollo film recorded on the moon made it safely to the earth and is archived.

Actually, I think it was Apollo 12 who accidentially left a bag with exposed hasselblad film magazines on the moon.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #172 on: January 06, 2017, 10:20:22 AM »
Sorry to jump in so late in the thread. Couldn't be bothered to read it all.

I'd like to show two pictures, taken with the same camera.

https://500px.com/photo/144719533/the-milky-way-by-allan-folmersen?ctx_page=2&from=user&user_id=5551450

Please note this is an unedited photo - and you can see the EXIF data at the right. f:3.5, ISO 12800 and shutterspeed 30s

Then there's this:

https://500px.com/photo/160804883/morning-on-the-shoreline-by-allan-folmersen?ctx_page=2&from=user&user_id=5551450

The EXIF is 1/1000s, f:4.5 and ISO 100.

In the first picture, stars are visible. In the second picture, they are not.

The difference in exposure between those two pictures are:

(30/(1/1000))= 30.000 (shutterspeed)
12800/100    = 128
And half an F-stop. Let's not bother with that.

But the two other factors are 3.84 MILLION to 1. No camerasystem, no photographic film EVER has that dynamic range. THAT is where Icarus1's claim fails.

Thanks for popping in, even if the game has ended.

I didn't make a claim.  I said 'These look like stars'.  Not 'they ARE stars'.  I came here to prove a theory.  The theory has been proven False.

Thanks

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #173 on: January 06, 2017, 10:23:28 AM »
Actually, I think it was Apollo 12 who accidentially left a bag with exposed hasselblad film magazines on the moon.

Yeah....they were the ones where Kubrick's pet cat walked across the soundstage just after a stage-hand dropped a light onto the ground when he tripped over one of the wires that suspended the astronauts....  ::) :P :P :P  :o :o :o

@Icarus1: Here's one amazing piece of work that you should have a read of: http://history.nasa.gov/afj/pdf/clouds-across-the-moon.pdf It's an amazing piece of work by Paul White in which he matches the cloud patterns in Earth photos taken from the various Apollo missions. The very last page is of interest  ;D
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 10:30:56 AM by Zakalwe »
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Peter B

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #174 on: January 06, 2017, 10:31:28 AM »
G'day Icarus1, and welcome to the forum.

If I could just add my 2 cents worth...

The thing to take away from the issue of two photos is that context matters.

The two photos you drew our attention to are simply two out of 120-odd photos taken by the Apollo 11 moonwalkers in their 2 hours 15 minutes on the surface of the Moon. Given that all those photos were on a single roll of film, any issues about those photos must also address all the other photos on the roll. After all, you only need to accept that a single photo in the Apollo record is genuine to accept that people have actually walked on the Moon.

The second aspect of context is that the photos are a record of what the astronauts did on the Moon - collecting rocks and placing scientific equipment. In other words, the photos are part of the Apollo scientific record. The process of collecting rocks included photographing them in situ prior to collection, and having scientists photograph them again in the lab once they'd been returned to Earth. To non-scientists like me, photos of rocks are generally uninteresting, but they provide geological context for scientists trying to ascertain the Moon's history. In that sense, faked Apollo photographs would be quickly uncovered by scientists because of the inconsistency between the rocks in the photos and the rocks in their labs.

Finally, in the broader sense, the context of Apollo was the Cold War rivalry between the USA and the USSR. For all the nobility of exploration and the broadening of our scientific knowledge (and sure, that happened), the reality was that Project Apollo was just another weapon in the propaganda war between the two nuclear superpowers. In that sense, Apollo had to be real, because being caught faking it would have been a far worse propaganda disaster than either not getting to the Moon or getting there second. Thanks to their openness about their space program (and also to Soviet agents working in NASA) the Americans made it as easy as possible for the Soviets to verify the reality of the program. The Soviets never questioned the reality of Apollo; they merely pointed out (accurately) how expensive and dangerous it was compared to their unmanned sample retriever missions.

The thing about Project Apollo as an event in history is that all the evidence converges on the same conclusion. No single piece of evidence proves Apollo beyond doubt; instead, everything fits together as a consistent whole. You can see that the spacesuits used by astronauts on Space Shuttle mission spacewalks are based on the Apollo spacesuits; you can examine a genuine Saturn V rocket at Houston and compare it to footage of the Saturn Vs lifting off during Apollo; you can talk to the scientists from around the world (including from countries hostile to the USA) who've examined Apollo rocks and written scientific papers about them. And so on.

Compare that with people who think Apollo was hoaxed. None of them is able to produce a coherent narrative about how Apollo was faked. Ask enough (and usually not many) questions and you find them contradicting themselves. For example, according to one hoax proponent, TV footage recorded when the astronauts were close to the camera was recorded in a vacuum chamber to accurately re-create the effect of dusty particles falling to the ground; but TV footage recorded when the astronauts were distant from the camera was recorded in the desert at night; but there's TV footage showing the astronauts close to the camera then moving away until they're distant, all in a single uninterrupted piece of footage. How was this recorded?

So please take advantage of the opportunities to learn about Apollo. There's a lot of good information in the Internet, even more in books.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #175 on: January 06, 2017, 10:35:42 AM »
I've a lot of work ahead of me to attain this knowledge.   It's obviously too much for me to take in over night.

What I have never seen is a full catalogue of original pics or video.

Apollo Image Library.

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/picture.html

Project Apollo Image Gallery

http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html

The Project Apollo Archive, including the above gallery

http://www.apolloarchive.com/

The experiences of a NASA tech who worked on suits and PLSS systems

http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum38/HTML/001957-12.html

The Lunar Sourcebook

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/books/lunar_sourcebook/



That should keep you going. Meanwhile, a thought from a fellow Brit -

Don't let the side down, old chap.

 ;)

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #176 on: January 06, 2017, 10:46:06 AM »
G'day Icarus1, and welcome to the forum.

If I could just add my 2 cents worth...

The thing to take away from the issue of two photos is that context matters.

The two photos you drew our attention to are simply two out of 120-odd photos taken by the Apollo 11 moonwalkers in their 2 hours 15 minutes on the surface of the Moon. Given that all those photos were on a single roll of film, any issues about those photos must also address all the other photos on the roll. After all, you only need to accept that a single photo in the Apollo record is genuine to accept that people have actually walked on the Moon.

The second aspect of context is that the photos are a record of what the astronauts did on the Moon - collecting rocks and placing scientific equipment. In other words, the photos are part of the Apollo scientific record. The process of collecting rocks included photographing them in situ prior to collection, and having scientists photograph them again in the lab once they'd been returned to Earth. To non-scientists like me, photos of rocks are generally uninteresting, but they provide geological context for scientists trying to ascertain the Moon's history. In that sense, faked Apollo photographs would be quickly uncovered by scientists because of the inconsistency between the rocks in the photos and the rocks in their labs.

Finally, in the broader sense, the context of Apollo was the Cold War rivalry between the USA and the USSR. For all the nobility of exploration and the broadening of our scientific knowledge (and sure, that happened), the reality was that Project Apollo was just another weapon in the propaganda war between the two nuclear superpowers. In that sense, Apollo had to be real, because being caught faking it would have been a far worse propaganda disaster than either not getting to the Moon or getting there second. Thanks to their openness about their space program (and also to Soviet agents working in NASA) the Americans made it as easy as possible for the Soviets to verify the reality of the program. The Soviets never questioned the reality of Apollo; they merely pointed out (accurately) how expensive and dangerous it was compared to their unmanned sample retriever missions.

The thing about Project Apollo as an event in history is that all the evidence converges on the same conclusion. No single piece of evidence proves Apollo beyond doubt; instead, everything fits together as a consistent whole. You can see that the spacesuits used by astronauts on Space Shuttle mission spacewalks are based on the Apollo spacesuits; you can examine a genuine Saturn V rocket at Houston and compare it to footage of the Saturn Vs lifting off during Apollo; you can talk to the scientists from around the world (including from countries hostile to the USA) who've examined Apollo rocks and written scientific papers about them. And so on.

Compare that with people who think Apollo was hoaxed. None of them is able to produce a coherent narrative about how Apollo was faked. Ask enough (and usually not many) questions and you find them contradicting themselves. For example, according to one hoax proponent, TV footage recorded when the astronauts were close to the camera was recorded in a vacuum chamber to accurately re-create the effect of dusty particles falling to the ground; but TV footage recorded when the astronauts were distant from the camera was recorded in the desert at night; but there's TV footage showing the astronauts close to the camera then moving away until they're distant, all in a single uninterrupted piece of footage. How was this recorded?

So please take advantage of the opportunities to learn about Apollo. There's a lot of good information in the Internet, even more in books.

Thanks Peter.

I'd like to point out I didn't search thru all the images and decide on these two specifically to prove a point.  I found the first 2 with a black sky and over exposed them to reveal artifact not present in the original scan;with the naked eye (though one of them I count 16 dots.)

What I haven't expressed here is that I have given NASA more credit that they are due it seems.  I did not expect a catalogue of what can be regarded as THE most important photographs since the invention of the camera, to be released to the public covered in dandruff and Pubic hair.

So far and using this as a starting point, this has been my only error.  To re-iterate;Not considering the images I was viewing were not perfect specimens.

The rest that has come to pass is an over zealous attempt to treat me as a Tin Foil hat wearing, Basement living with parents no friends paranoid lizard licking banjo playing sister sexing Nob Jockey.......

I'm only half of those things for a start.  The rest is just a Conspiracy to undermine my intelligence and intergrity as a Tree Hugging Philanthropist.   :P ::) ??? :o ;D

But it's all good.  I have my answers.

Thanks.

Offline Allan F

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #177 on: January 06, 2017, 10:53:22 AM »
Pete Conrad actually forgot a hasselblad magazine on the moon. No cats, no Kubrick - just a misunderstanding between the two astronauts.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline bknight

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #178 on: January 06, 2017, 10:56:44 AM »
Pete Conrad actually forgot a hasselblad magazine on the moon. No cats, no Kubrick - just a misunderstanding between the two astronauts.

I thought it was Bean, after all the commander can't be blamed but must accept responsibility. :)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline gillianren

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #179 on: January 06, 2017, 12:14:55 PM »
For the record?  If you want to close a quote, use this--{/quote}--but with regular brackets.  When you want to open a new quote block again, start it with this--{quote}--with regular brackets.  It will go a long way toward making what you write intelligible.

Now, if you want to make it intelligent, I have other suggestions.  Like don't say that your ignorance outranks their expertise.  If you don't know how film works, because all your professional photography work is digital?  Learn.  If you don't understand the physics of why it's not possible for the film to capture stars?  Learn.  I freely admit that my science knowledge is extremely limited; the story of Why Gillian Never Learned Physics is amusing enough, but it's also why I don't argue with physicists.  I admit my ignorance.  I'm strictly an amateur photographer, too, but I do know enough about science and photography to understand exposure and don't expect to see stars that aren't the Sun in daylight scenes.

And a question.  Do you understand the point about constellations?  I know, I know--you've conceded.  But that's not why I'm asking.  I'm trying to determine if you've given in or if you've actually learned something; the latter is considerably more important--to both of us.
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