Author Topic: Hiroshima and Nagasaki  (Read 27162 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2015, 06:21:06 PM »
At least they never released the bat bombs, which was an actual thing and not something out of a Silver Age Batman comic.
Wow, I'd never heard of this weapon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb

Offline bknight

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2015, 06:35:03 PM »
At least they never released the bat bombs, which was an actual thing and not something out of a Silver Age Batman comic.
Wow, I'd never heard of this weapon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb
Just like the Navy training dolphins to attach mines to vessels.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline Allan F

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2015, 07:24:33 PM »
And the russians training dogs to hide under enemy tanks - and blow them up with explosives strapped to their bodies. Didn't go well - the dogs ran away and blew up everywhere else.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline bknight

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2015, 07:49:30 PM »
And the russians training dogs to hide under enemy tanks - and blow them up with explosives strapped to their bodies. Didn't go well - the dogs ran away and blew up everywhere else.

Smart Laika. :)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline raven

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2015, 08:17:54 PM »
I think the bat bomb might have worked a little better, as it didn't depend on training but on the bats' natural instinct to roost.

Offline bknight

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2015, 08:32:13 PM »
I think the bat bomb might have worked a little better, as it didn't depend on training but on the bats' natural instinct to roost.
Being an animal lover it just wrong feeling.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline VQ

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2015, 09:49:20 PM »
From what I've read, the invasion plan would have involved dropping of the bombs on enemy defensive positions, with Allied troops entering those areas shortly after. Imagine what a cluster-FUBAR SNAFU that would have been! :o

Air bursts don't leave much local radiation, do they?

Offline Allan F

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2015, 11:40:31 PM »
Neutron activation would make it an extremely hot zone. Also, every part of the bombs fuel would be everywhere including the daughter products of the fission reaction.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline bknight

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2015, 12:13:54 AM »
The radiation effects on Hiroshima are interesting. 
Quote
By the time spring of 1946 arrived, the citizens of Hiroshima were surprised to find the landscape dotted with the blooming red petals of the oleander. The oleander flower, called the kyochikuto in Japanese, dispelled worries that the destroyed city had lost all its fertility and inspired the population with hope that Hiroshima would soon recover from the tragic bombing.
Now the official flower of Hiroshima, the oleander offers a beautiful symbol for the city as a whole; while some feared that the city and its population were irreparably destroyed—permanently cut off from normality by the effects of radiation—many would be surprised to learn of the limited long term health effects the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945 have had.

The worst aspects aside from those killed immediately after the explosion were the radiation associated ailments including leukemia two years after, cancers about 10 years after and deformities of those unborn during the attack.
Seventy years after the bombing the back ground radiation has returned to normal.

http://k1project.org/explore-health/hiroshima-and-nagasaki-the-long-term-health-effects
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline VQ

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2015, 02:26:52 AM »
Neutron activation would make it an extremely hot zone. Also, every part of the bombs fuel would be everywhere including the daughter products of the fission reaction.
Both neutron activation and fallout are definitely less (locally) severe with airbursts, because they are so much more dispersed.

Offline BazBear

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2015, 03:13:47 AM »
On the other hand, the Red Army went through Manchuria in a little over a week...
The "third bomb" indeed.
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Offline BazBear

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2015, 03:31:16 AM »
Its a good point to compare it to the Normandy landings. Estimates are somewhere in the region of 4,400 Allied deaths on D-Day alone. In total, 450,000 Allied and German soldiers died in the Battle of Normandy. The memory of that would have been fresh in the decision-maker's minds. It's very probably that the death toll would have been higher in a Japanese invasion.
Indeed. As ugly as the Normandy invasion was, Iwo Jima and Okinawa were human for human, far uglier. Which leaves me with a loss of coherent things to add. Those unfamiliar with those invasions would do well to at least read the Wikipediia articles. You'll at least get the gist and can do the math.

ETA- not directed at you, Zakalwe , other than the good point to start from
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 03:48:38 AM by BazBear »
"It's true you know. In space, no one can hear you scream like a little girl." - Mark Watney, protagonist of The Martian by Andy Weir

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2015, 08:25:47 AM »
At least they never released the bat bombs, which was an actual thing and not something out of a Silver Age Batman comic.
Wow, I'd never heard of this weapon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb

I remember when I first heard about the bat bomb. I imagined a crazy alternate reality where it had been used in lieu of nuclear weaponry as part of the most elaborate PSYOP in human history, wherein the U.S. led the rest of the world to believe that we'd employed some form of evil magic on the target cities, which in turn convinced the Soviets to shift their focus from developing a nuclear arsenal of their own and to instead devote their resources to finding the Russian equivalent of a Harry Potter.

Silly, I know, but it's just how my poor brain works.  :P
You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can not make him think.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2015, 10:34:31 AM »
Something else that runs counter to the claim of the bombings being of a "terrorist" nature are the leaflet sorties(see also here) that had been in effect over the entire course of the bombing campaign leading up to Hiroshima.

(below figures all derived from the same source)

Some 70,000–80,000 people, of whom 20,000 were soldiers, or around 30% of the population of Hiroshima, were killed by the blast and resultant firestorm,[135][136] and another 70,000 injured.[137]

That gives Hiroshima a population of roughly 250,000 at the time of the bombing, significantly(approximately 29.4%) lower than the census information listed for Hiroshima as of 2/22/1944. In fact, it's even lower than the wartime population stated in this portion,

The population of Hiroshima had reached a peak of over 381,000 earlier in the war but prior to the atomic bombing, the population had steadily decreased because of a systematic evacuation ordered by the Japanese government. At the time of the attack, the population was approximately 340,000–350,000.[112]

which appears to be explained by the aforementioned civilian evacuations the Japanese government undertook throughout the bombing campaign, and is in reasonable agreement with the 30% drop derived earlier in my post.

Following Little Boy's aerial detonation over Hiroshima, on August 6th 1944 the U.S. dropped more leaflets warning that, barring a surrender, the bombings would continue and that the citizenry should evacuate their cities.

In my opinion, it would be disingenuous to discount the leaflet campaigns having at least been a factor in the population outflow of a hitherto unscathed target such as Hiroshima, and I further claim that in the aftermath of the devastation wrought by Little Boy, they would have been taken even more seriously by the people of Nagasaki.

Terrorists don't telegraph their punches like this.
You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can not make him think.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2015, 02:48:36 PM »
The destruction at Hiroshima was so thorough that accurate word didn't really get to the rest of the country for some time. It could be argued that the Nagasaki bombing was unnecessary or at least too soon after the Hiroshima bombing (3 days later) for the leadership of the country to take some sort of action.