Author Topic: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots  (Read 440193 times)

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #270 on: May 06, 2012, 03:56:25 PM »
You know, I asked at the very beginning of all of this whether there was any point refuting any of the arguments CTs present.  After eighteen pages, it's conclusive.  Nothing we can say will penetrate "but I believe it was a coup!"  Not logic, not law, not ballistics, not forensics.  What matters is belief, and those persuaded more by evidence are not needed.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Chew

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 545
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #271 on: May 06, 2012, 06:03:26 PM »
Quote
Excerpt from Tip O’Neill’s 1987, Man of the House:

“It was such a sad day that it seemed like the whole world had come apart.

I was never one of those people who had doubts or suspicions about the Warren Commission’s report on the president’s death. But five years after Jack died, I was having dinner with Kenny O’Donnell and a few other people at Jimmy’s Harborside Restaurant in Boston, and we got to talking about the assassination.

I was surprised to hear O’Donnell say that he was sure he had heard two shots that came from behind the fence.

‘That’s not what you told the Warren Commission,’ I said.

‘You’re right,’ he replied. ‘I told the FBI what I had heard, but they said it couldn’t have happened that way and that I must have been imagining things. So I testified the way they wanted me to. I just didn’t want to stir up any more pain and trouble for the family.’

‘I can’t believe it,’ I said. ‘I wouldn’t have done that in a million years. I would have told the truth.’

‘Tip, you have to understand. The family — everybody wanted this thing behind them.’

Dave Powers was with us at dinner that night, and his recollection of the shots was the same as O’Donnell’s. Kenny O’Donnell is no longer alive, but during the writing of this book I checked with Dave Powers. As they say in the news business, he stands by his story.

And so there will always be some skepticism in my mind about the cause of Jack’s death. I used to think that the only people who doubted the conclusions of the Warren Commission were crackpots. Now, however, I’m not so sure.Link

Offline twik

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #272 on: May 06, 2012, 06:09:38 PM »
So, someone says some other people said something? This is what you call evidence?

Tip O'Neill carries more then enough weight to be taken seriously.
Yes, this is exactly what I call evidence.

So, we are to respect a politician who *knows* that the President was murdered by the Powers That Be, but keeps on working with them, never trying to expose the conspiracy beyond gossiping with filmmakers?

Oh, and if he feels free enough to talk to those same filmmakers, blowing the story, he can't claim he was afraid, or intimidated, or anything.

The other way of looking at it is that an elderly man was cajoled into repeating some half-forgotten gossip in front of a camera, which he had no real belief in, but suited a filmmaker with an agenda.

You're right - if O'Neill believed this, it SHOULD have "rocked the world". Clearly, he didn't believe it. But seriously - a president is assassinated in a coup, and his Democratic Party friends (and Attorney General brother) do nothing, because "the family wants it behind them"? That's farcical.

Offline profmunkin

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #273 on: May 06, 2012, 06:21:21 PM »
You know, I asked at the very beginning of all of this whether there was any point refuting any of the arguments CTs present.  After eighteen pages, it's conclusive.  Nothing we can say will penetrate "but I believe it was a coup!"  Not logic, not law, not ballistics, not forensics.  What matters is belief, and those persuaded more by evidence are not needed.
There are a couple of debates on youtube with Mark Lane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=l0mSVjzKE0s

The primary tactic that is used by the WC members and supporters is personal attacks on Mark Lane. They avoid any debate on the 'evidence' presented by Lane.
It just gets laughable and embarrassing for the few supporters there are for the WC report.

When incongruities are found within the WC report, its termed nitpicking.
When deception and lies are uncovered it generates personal attacks.

That's all you got!
Nitpicking and personal attacks.
I know it to be a conspiracy because of the mountain of evidence showing the assassination of JFK to be a coup at the highest levels topped with the absurdity, lies and deceptions that can be found within the WC report.

Ballistics!!! - two words for you 'magic bullet'
You believe in the magic bullet, logic won't help you, it's trapped you!
Crackpot actually applies to believers in the 'magic bullet'.

Forensics!!! - Police paraffin test shows Oswald did not fire a rifle on November 22 - HSCA performed neutron activation analysis of the paraffin casts and could not find any residue of gun powder on the Oswald's side of the casts. There is no evidence he fired a gun on November 22. But lets not let facts cloud your reasoning.
Also lets just pretend the police did not find a Mauser 7.65 rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD, it is impossible to explain away.
Or that palm prints magically appeared on the Carcano.
Or the ammunition manufactured in 1947 supposedly fired by Oswad was tested and found to be mainly unusable.
Or the fact that the world greatest markman in 1963 said Oswald's assassination feat was impossible. As well as other expert marksman. Not even considering the first shot was almost through the tree blocking the view from the TSBD.
Or the fact that the carcano advertised for mail order was not the same as the one found on the 6th floor.

Autopsy - Back wound never probed for bullet path. Existence of Neck wound unknown at autopsy, which was an entrance wound per Parkland doctors.
Back wound was at 3rd thoracic vertebra, yet artist (who was not allowed to see autopsy photos) produced WC exhibit showing back wound now to be a 'high back wound' that was in reality high on the neck and almost a foot higher so that the 'magic bullet' theory could be contrived to work.

Head wound, hit in the temple from the front, blowing out the back right side of JFK's head, the only dissenting view is from Humes (who destroyed evidence, his notes and the first draft of the autopsy) and his 2 cronies. Witnesses at the scene and at Parkand and Bethesda adamantly deny Humes position of the head wound.
Humes was not even allowed to do the autopsy without a general telling him what he could do and what he was not allowed to do. Besides the FACT he wasn't a qualified forensic pathologist.

FBI sends a warning of potential assassination attempt to all offices a few days prior to Dallas, well we know about the FBI by now.
Despite cancelling the Miami motorcade because of credible evidence of an assassination attempt, the SS does little to nothing to protect the President in Dallas, despite treason leaflets and a full page ad against JFK. An army security support group is told to stand down down as well as extra law enforcement officers.

The SS agent in charge calls off agents that would normally ride on the rear of JFK's limo
They move JFK's limo to the front the motorcade behind the lead car.
The motorcycle escorts are told to stay back, away from the limo
During the shooting Greer slows or stops the limo.
The SS agents do notning but watch JFK get assassinated.

There was no apparent reason for the Dallas Police to to be looking for Oswald, yet that is exactly the direction they immediately proceed.
What was it 30 cop cars surround a theatre because of a person sneaking in to the movies.

JFK body was forcibly and illegally removed from the hospital by the SS.
The limo, which was evidence in the murder was taken by the SS and sanitized before it could be examined for any evidence.

Dallas Police allowed Ruby access to kill Oswald. Despite warnings to the FBI (yea why bother) and Police that Oswald would be killed.
Ruby claims that he was forced to kill Oswald and stated that there was a conspiracy from the highest levels, but he is ignored.

You got nothin but WC lies and deceit to defend.

Offline Ranb

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #274 on: May 06, 2012, 07:56:11 PM »
I am still waiting for you to discuss evidence of multiple shooters.  18 pages and you still got nothing?

Ranb

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #275 on: May 06, 2012, 09:54:48 PM »
Oh, I'm going to regret this . . . .

There are a couple of debates on youtube with Mark Lane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=l0mSVjzKE0s

I don't care.  Mark Lane is not the one presenting evidence here, and if he were, I wouldn't care what he'd said elsewhere.  All I care about is what is presented here and now.

Quote
The primary tactic that is used by the WC members and supporters is personal attacks on Mark Lane. They avoid any debate on the 'evidence' presented by Lane.
It just gets laughable and embarrassing for the few supporters there are for the WC report.

Well, when you're too ignorant to know the legal definition of "hearsay," how equipped are you to evaluate any evidence at all?

Quote
When incongruities are found within the WC report, its termed nitpicking.
When deception and lies are uncovered it generates personal attacks.

Deception and lies?  How about the lie that Jim Garrison convinced a jury that a conspiracy killed JFK?  How about the incongruity that it's said, "Well, he convinced them that it was a conspiracy, just not the one he presented, so that means the one he presented is worth listening to"?  No.  You are only interested in incongruities, deception, and lies from one side.  You won't even present a clear story of what happened to be examined.

Quote
That's all you got!
Nitpicking and personal attacks.

Oh, and the testimony of literally thousands of experts in all sorts of relevant fields.  Answer this, please.  When ballistics experts are conspiracy theorists, it's always "Well, the ballistics works, so the evidence of a conspiracy must be in another field."  Or doctors who actually looked at the autopsy reports.  Or photographic experts.  Any expert says it must be some other field which proves a conspiracy.  Why is that?

Quote
I know it to be a conspiracy because of the mountain of evidence showing the assassination of JFK to be a coup at the highest levels topped with the absurdity, lies and deceptions that can be found within the WC report.

No, what you have is supposition.  You have not presented anything which meets any reasonable burden of proof.

Quote
Ballistics!!! - two words for you 'magic bullet'
You believe in the magic bullet, logic won't help you, it's trapped you!
Crackpot actually applies to believers in the 'magic bullet'.

Wrong.  You have been told, repeatedly, that the exact same shot has been duplicated.  On film.  By independent tests that have nothing to do with the US government.  At least one of the tests I know of was carried out in Australia.  And yet every time someone tells you that, you just ignore it.  Was it a lucky shot?  Well, yes, in a lot of ways.  But lucky shots happen, and the head shot was hardly lucky at all.  Just what Oswald's Marine colleagues knew him to be capable of.

Quote
Forensics!!! - Police paraffin test shows Oswald did not fire a rifle on November 22 - HSCA performed neutron activation analysis of the paraffin casts and could not find any residue of gun powder on the Oswald's side of the casts. There is no evidence he fired a gun on November 22. But lets not let facts cloud your reasoning.

Well, no evidence except multiple eyewitnesses to the Tippit shooting, of course.  Oh, and at least one eyewitness to the Kennedy shooting.  And the fact that he was arrested while in possession of the gun that killed Tippit.  And let's not leave aside the fact that the tests were unreliable and known to be unreliable even in 1963.

Quote
Also lets just pretend the police did not find a Mauser 7.65 rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD, it is impossible to explain away.

Except for the explanation that they didn't, and that someone misidentified what kind of rifle it was.  All the photographic evidence shows that it was a Mannlicher-Carcanno.  But yeah, aside from that, it's impossible to explain away.

Quote
Or that palm prints magically appeared on the Carcano.

What's magical about it?  Explain, in your own words, exactly what's surprising.

Quote
Or the ammunition manufactured in 1947 supposedly fired by Oswad was tested and found to be mainly unusable.

Wrong.

Quote
Or the fact that the world greatest markman in 1963 said Oswald's assassination feat was impossible. As well as other expert marksman. Not even considering the first shot was almost through the tree blocking the view from the TSBD.

Yeah, that tree blocks it now.  Because trees grow.  It didn't in 1963.  And, again, the shot has been duplicated.  Repeatedly.  Check out Unsolved History on The Discovery Channel, where they duplicate it several times.  And give me a citation.  Who determines who the greatest marksman in the world is?

Quote
Or the fact that the carcano advertised for mail order was not the same as the one found on the 6th floor.

So you've never gotten something that wasn't quite what you ordered?  Also, cite? 

Quote
Autopsy - Back wound never probed for bullet path. Existence of Neck wound unknown at autopsy, which was an entrance wound per Parkland doctors.

The Parkland doctors weren't forensics experts.  They were very good at being emergency room doctors; it wasn't their fault that Kennedy was beyond saving.  But it is well established that emergency room doctors are lousy at knowing if a wound is an entry wound or an exit wound.

Quote
Back wound was at 3rd thoracic vertebra, yet artist (who was not allowed to see autopsy photos) produced WC exhibit showing back wound now to be a 'high back wound' that was in reality high on the neck and almost a foot higher so that the 'magic bullet' theory could be contrived to work.

Well, except that you're wrong in almost every particular on that.  Do you read anything which isn't conspiracist sites and books?

Quote
Head wound, hit in the temple from the front, blowing out the back right side of JFK's head, the only dissenting view is from Humes (who destroyed evidence, his notes and the first draft of the autopsy) and his 2 cronies. Witnesses at the scene and at Parkand and Bethesda adamantly deny Humes position of the head wound.

Witnesses at the scene?  You mean Dealey Plaza?  Where a vast majority of witnesses agreed that the shots were form behind and to the right?  Honestly, can't you even be a little internally consistent?

Quote
Humes was not even allowed to do the autopsy without a general telling him what he could do and what he was not allowed to do. Besides the FACT he wasn't a qualified forensic pathologist.

"In charge was James J. Humes, M.D., at that time Commander, Medical Corps, United States Navy, and Director of Laboratories, Naval Medical School.  He was certified in 1955 by the American Board of Pathology in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology."  Which is totally the same thing. 

Quote
FBI sends a warning of potential assassination attempt to all offices a few days prior to Dallas, well we know about the FBI by now.

Yes.  They were dramatically understaffed to keep track of all the crazies in Texas and weren't really the ones in charge of Presidential security anyway.  Did you have another point?  Maybe one you could make with evidence instead of innuendo?

Quote
Despite cancelling the Miami motorcade because of credible evidence of an assassination attempt, the SS does little to nothing to protect the President in Dallas, despite treason leaflets and a full page ad against JFK. An army security support group is told to stand down down as well as extra law enforcement officers.

Not true, and besides, the full-page ad against JFK wasn't actually the same thing as credible evidence of an assassination attempt.  Have you looked around lately?  And yet Obama goes out to places where he's theoretically in danger all the time, because a President has to do that.  Especially when he's trying to sway public opinion toward him for an upcoming election campaign.

Quote
The SS agent in charge calls off agents that would normally ride on the rear of JFK's limo

Demonstrably not true by watching the Zapruder film.

Quote
They move JFK's limo to the front the motorcade behind the lead car.
The motorcycle escorts are told to stay back, away from the limo
During the shooting Greer slows or stops the limo.
The SS agents do notning but watch JFK get assassinated.

Seriously, have you ever looked at the Zapruder film at all?  And what do you suggest they do, given how little reaction time they had?

Quote
There was no apparent reason for the Dallas Police to to be looking for Oswald, yet that is exactly the direction they immediately proceed.

I already gave you reasons; you rejected them, because they don't fit your chosen narrative.

Quote
What was it 30 cop cars surround a theatre because of a person sneaking in to the movies.

Oh, and shooting a police officer.  And meeting the description of the person believed to have killed the President and possibly fatally wounded the governor.  But yeah, that's the same thing.

Quote
JFK body was forcibly and illegally removed from the hospital by the SS.

At the insistence of Jackie Kennedy, who wouldn't go back to Washington without him.  What she did that day was wrong but understandable if you know anything about human nature.

Quote
The limo, which was evidence in the murder was taken by the SS and sanitized before it could be examined for any evidence.

Wrong.

Quote
Dallas Police allowed Ruby access to kill Oswald. Despite warnings to the FBI (yea why bother) and Police that Oswald would be killed.

Look into what actually happened that day.  It's hardly as simple as you're claiming.

Quote
Ruby claims that he was forced to kill Oswald and stated that there was a conspiracy from the highest levels, but he is ignored.

Cite?

Quote
You got nothin but WC lies and deceit to defend.

Well, and every qualified expert who's ever looked into the subject.  Some of your misinformation is so easy to prove wrong that I would be embarrassed, if I were you.  But you aren't going to be, because you don't think it's true unless it supports your chosen narrative.

Which, of course, you haven't supplied.  Who were the shooters?  Where were they?  How did they produce the wounds in both Kennedy and Connally?
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline profmunkin

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #276 on: May 06, 2012, 10:51:49 PM »
Do you guys post on this board as part of a job or do you actually believe the Warren Commission was truthful and factual?
Seriously getting frightened here, that you guys are nuts.

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #277 on: May 06, 2012, 11:06:02 PM »
That's it?  That's what you have?  You don't have a coherent narrative.  You don't have the evidence to show that anything you cite is actually true, and you don't have the decency to admit when you're wrong.  Even when it's over something so basic as a person's qualifications.  You say that all we engage in is name-calling and nit-picking, but we're nuts?  Seriously.  Can you at least acknowledge that you were wrong that Dr. Hume wasn't qualified as a forensic pathologist?  Can you at least admit that he was more qualified as one, given that he was board-certified, than a bunch of ER doctors who weren't?
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline LunarOrbit

  • Administrator
  • Saturn
  • *****
  • Posts: 1052
    • ApolloHoax.net
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #278 on: May 06, 2012, 11:14:08 PM »
Do you guys post on this board as part of a job or do you actually believe the Warren Commission was truthful and factual?

Ah, there it is. The old "you guys must be paid to do this" accusation. I was wondering when someone would make it in the new forum.

Quote
Seriously getting frightened here, that you guys are nuts.

Wow. You're progressing through the list pretty quickly. First the accusation of being paid disinfo agents, and now the accusation that we're nuts. And why exactly are we nuts? Because we ask for actual verifiable evidence for your claims and don't just believe all of the rumours, speculation, and fabricated claims found on conspiracy sites like you do? You lack any concept of critical thinking, you're completely gullible and you don't have a grasp of logic. And you think we're nuts?
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline profmunkin

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #279 on: May 06, 2012, 11:17:35 PM »
You really don't have a clue about the known facts associated with the JFK assassination do you?
You are defending a cover up that has long ago been recognized and exposed as fraudulent.
You need some serious deprogramming. I would recommend meditation for a good start.

Offline profmunkin

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #280 on: May 06, 2012, 11:27:27 PM »
That's it?  That's what you have?  You don't have a coherent narrative.  You don't have the evidence to show that anything you cite is actually true, and you don't have the decency to admit when you're wrong.  Even when it's over something so basic as a person's qualifications.  You say that all we engage in is name-calling and nit-picking, but we're nuts?  Seriously.  Can you at least acknowledge that you were wrong that Dr. Hume wasn't qualified as a forensic pathologist?  Can you at least admit that he was more qualified as one, given that he was board-certified, than a bunch of ER doctors who weren't?
Yep that's it in 1 blast.

Dr Humes was a qualified pathologist
He was not a qualified forensic pathologist.

And yes Humes was less qualified than the Doctors at Parkland who dealt with bullet wounds on a routine basis, Parkland Doctors where fully qualified to make their stated conclusions.

Offline profmunkin

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #281 on: May 06, 2012, 11:48:56 PM »
It was a serious inquiry
It is sad to realize anyone actually still believes this old era nonsense
Society is way past pretending that conspiracies are not real, they are revealed all the time, 1963 time was no different.

The power structure when threatened protected itself.

Kennedy said that the torch of leadership had passed to the next generation, Kennedy pointed towards a future era for a world without enemies. Kennedy had to be removed for the power structure to be sustained.

The power structure was and still is stuck in the need for enemies and war, it was and is still not cognizant of peace.
It is difficult to stop this insanity, power it seems, too addictive for so many.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 11:53:41 PM by profmunkin »

Offline twik

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #282 on: May 06, 2012, 11:50:12 PM »
Do you guys post on this board as part of a job or do you actually believe the Warren Commission was truthful and factual?
Seriously getting frightened here, that you guys are nuts.

I solemnly swear that I am not paid anything for posting on this, or any other, forum. Of course, that will not convince you, but I doubt that there's anything any poster can do that would do so.

And I am still waiting for your proof that there were SIX shooters from THREE locations. So far, you've failed entirely to address that. You cannot make an argument by throwing stuff against the wall, and waiting to see which parts stick. As gillianren points out, you have no narrative, no "this is what happened", just a bunch of "wow, isn't this weird, an anomaly! That must mean that the Official Story didn't happen!"

Offline Echnaton

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1490
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #283 on: May 06, 2012, 11:55:00 PM »
Do you guys post on this board as part of a job or do you actually believe the Warren Commission was truthful and factual?
Seriously getting frightened here, that you guys are nuts.
1 Stop being an ass.

2 I'd be willing to accept any alternative you care to present in a organized an coherent way,  An alternative that sorted through evidence ans made a better explanation for  all of it. But your gish gallop is not very persuasive.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline LunarOrbit

  • Administrator
  • Saturn
  • *****
  • Posts: 1052
    • ApolloHoax.net
Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #284 on: May 06, 2012, 11:56:23 PM »
You really don't have a clue about the known facts associated with the JFK assassination do you?

It is you who does not have a clue about the known facts associated with the JFK assassination. You have ignored the known facts because they conflict with your own beliefs, beliefs that are based only on speculation and rumours. You have let other conspiracy theorists fill your head with fabricated "facts" and lies. You don't question any of it because you want to believe it.

Quote
You are defending a cover up that has long ago been recognized and exposed as fraudulent.

Recognized and exposed by who?

Quote
You need some serious deprogramming.

I could say the same about you. But you're way beyond meditation.

Quote
And yes Humes was less qualified than the Doctors at Parkland who dealt with bullet wounds on a routine basis

Emergency room doctors specialize in repairing the damage caused by being shot. Their only goal is to prevent the death of the victim, not to investigate the crime. They have no expertise when it comes to forensics. Maybe you watch too much TV?
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)