Author Topic: The NTRS is back!  (Read 8317 times)

Offline ka9q

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The NTRS is back!
« on: May 18, 2013, 08:17:44 PM »
I just noticed that the NASA Technical Reports Server at http://ntrs.nasa.gov is back online.

It remains to be seen just how emasculated it is, though. Hopefully not many Apollo documents were removed.

Offline Inanimate Carbon Rod

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2013, 09:17:50 PM »
Why did it go away?
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Offline BazBear

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2013, 09:51:00 PM »
The short version is that NASA...in particular the Ames Research Center...had apparently allowed some foreign nationals to see or obtain technology that had been shared with, or repurposed, from U.S. DoD uses. So naturally the PTB went into COA mode to rake through material that had been open to the public for decades, looking for other possible classified tech...you know, just in case foreign gov'ts/companies etc. looking for missile/space technology hadn't thought of looking at all the publicly available NASA info before. ::)
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Offline ajv

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2013, 05:32:31 AM »
Hopefully not many Apollo documents were removed.
I think all of the NRTS documents I reference in the Apollo 9 Flight Journal have gone.

I have the PDFs from earlier but they're not on the site now.

Offline Abaddon

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2013, 06:37:41 AM »
Hopefully not many Apollo documents were removed.
I think all of the NRTS documents I reference in the Apollo 9 Flight Journal have gone.

I have the PDFs from earlier but they're not on the site now.
OK, I'm curious. Can you identify anything in what you have which might be considered "aid and comfort for the enemy"? I suspect not, but NASA are being uber-cautious, maybe. In any event, such material is already out there since you have copies. I'm just curious what, if anything, might be in the material you downloaded from NTRS which might be considered secret.

Offline ka9q

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2013, 12:02:44 PM »
Export controls (the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations, ITAR) have been a major headache for American space engineers for quite some time. They've always been problematic, but it got a lot worse in the late 1990s when a Chinese rocket carrying an American satellite failed. The American engineers helped with the investigation, as they were contractually obligated to do, and Congress went ballistic (so to speak) about it.

All this has done is to encourage the rise of a vibrant non-US spacecraft and components industry who openly advertise that their stuff is ITAR-free.

It makes sense to exclude a few pariah countries like North Korea, but it is pointless to treat other spacefaring countries like the UK, Japan and Germany the same way. There's this incredible conceit that only Americans are smart enough to figure out how to do this stuff. We're not.

When I battled ITAR in the 1990s over controls on public domain encryption software, I got quite far with the line "Apparently, only Americans can type".  I discovered it's always helpful to distill your argument into a single sound bite, preferably one that gets a laugh. It always did, including the two times I testified to Congress about it.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 12:04:44 PM by ka9q »

Offline BazBear

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2013, 06:42:21 PM »
It's just another case of the U.S. "Secrecy Bureaucracy ComplexTM" run amok.

I'm all for keeping certain cutting edge techs "secret"....whether for economic or military reasons...but when the freaking horse has been out of the barn for decades, and has set up  several new stables elsewhere, closing the barn door now is no more than lame @$$ COA posturing.
"It's true you know. In space, no one can hear you scream like a little girl." - Mark Watney, protagonist of The Martian by Andy Weir

Offline ka9q

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2013, 04:42:04 AM »
The problem is this 'dual use' crap. Anything can be turned into a weapon these days by the sufficiently motivated. I suppose even pressure cookers will soon be added to ITAR.

As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't have a warhead on it, it shouldn't be considered a munition.

Offline Al Johnston

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2013, 05:05:06 AM »
As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't have a warhead on it, it shouldn't be considered a munition.

That would make the BAe Rapier SAM a "non-munition" ;D
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2013, 07:31:16 AM »
The problem is this 'dual use' crap. Anything can be turned into a weapon these days by the sufficiently motivated. I suppose even pressure cookers will soon be added to ITAR.

As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't have a warhead on it, it shouldn't be considered a munition.


From USA Today.

Customs arrests Saudi traveler with pressure cooker
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Offline Peter B

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2013, 09:23:24 AM »
The problem is this 'dual use' crap. Anything can be turned into a weapon these days by the sufficiently motivated...
Even a sharp pencil, according to a former Australian Government minister back in 2005...

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2005/s1511257.htm

Quote
...Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone...said a lot of airline security was more about making people feel better than achieving an outcome.

Senator Vanstone illustrated her argument by saying it would be possible to hijack a plane by using a pencil to stab someone in the eye.

And the thing to keep in mind here is that people are taught to fight back against terrorists using anything they can find which could be used as a weapon...
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Offline ka9q

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2013, 11:32:15 AM »
The expression, coined by security expert Bruce Schneier, is security theater.

Bruce wrote the book that was at the center of my case against the US State Department on ITAR controls on public domain cryptography. State ruled that it was okay to export the printed book but not the floppy containing the exact same contents. As I said, only Americans can type. My case was one of three that eventually pressured Clinton to relax the controls in 2000. But the ITAR still includes lots of so-called dual-use stuff that's already readily available around the world and which has plenty of peaceful uses.


Offline ajv

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2013, 07:36:21 PM »
I'm just curious what, if anything, might be in the material you downloaded from NTRS which might be considered secret.
Not really. The items appear to have been caught up in a large sweep of documents rather than being selected individually for exclusion.

The items missing from my references page are:
  • Apollo 9 Mission Report
  • Apollo 9 Mission 5-Day Report
  • Apollo 9 Mission Final Flight Evaluation Report
  • Apollo 9 30-day Failure and Anomaly Listing Report
  • Apollo 9 Synoptic Photography Catalog
  • Apollo 9 Multispectral Photographic Information
I suppose something like the 30-day Failure and Anomaly Listing might be of use if you happened to have a Lunar Module in your workshop:
Quote
... when the (LM) forward hatch was opened for extravehicular activity, it tended to bind on top and had to be pushed downward to open it. ... Corrective action will be to run a strip of tape between the vehicle structure and shield ...

Among the most innocuous in the list is the Synoptic report. It contains descriptions of all the photographic frames. e.g.
Quote
Frame:AS09-22-3335
Latitude:33 15N
Longitude:100 53W
Image overlap:70%
Altitude:105 nautical miles
Cloud cover:10%
Viewing mode:Oblique
Description:Texas, Lubbock, Red River, Big Springs, Sweetwater

Offline ka9q

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Re: The NTRS is back!
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2013, 02:25:47 AM »
I have a pretty big collection of NASA Apollo documents, so if they don't reappear soon on the NTRS let me know and we can merge them.