Apollo Discussions > The Hoax Theory
Apollo 11 Flag
bknight:
--- Quote from: jr Knowing on December 12, 2018, 10:24:40 AM ---Thanks for the replies. I have read the surface journal in the past. The editors of the journal are just guessing and trying to rationalize how the flag changed direction. In fact, they went as far as implying Armstrong didn't know what he was talking about when he suggested he saw the flag had moved when he got back in the LM. Who are we suppose to believe? Armstrong or some guys writing about it 30 years later?
The issue, of course, is Armstrong's comments can't be correct due to the existence of the post EVA photos showing the flag in the original position. So the question still remains. When did the flag change? And another thing to contemplate is why did they do 4 short pans of the same thing. In all the missions, very rarely did they take multiple shots or pans of the same thing. It was usually one shot, done, and move on. A bit odd given the (photo) camera they were using didn't have a viewfinder. Thanks for your input.
--- End quote ---
Bolded is not correct. They interview/debriefed the crews after each mission so the comment are from the individual memories of the astronauts.
You stated that they were attempting to use up magazines. Pans used a large number of shots in a short period of time. Nothing suspicious to a reasonable person unless you are JAQ leading to "I don't understand, therefore it is fake/fraud etc.
Kiwi:
This bit in the ALSJ gives some approximate times that the post-EVA photos were taken:
--- Quote ---112:20:56 Aldrin: Roger, Houston. Tranquility Base. We're in the process of using up what film we have, and I'm just getting ready to change the primary ECS canister. Over.
[They are finishing up magazines 37/R, taking AS11-37-5460 to 5555, and 39/Q, taking AS11-39-5792 to 5839. Journal Contributor Bob Farwell has selected frames from Magazine 37/R for a pan covering both windows. Note that Farwell's construction involves a certain amount of artistic license because neither Neil or Buzz actually had an unrestricted view from side to side, as shown by pans assembled from Magazine 39/Q images for the CDR window and the LMP window. Exercising a bit more artistic license, Farwell has created an enhanced version by using pre-EVA image AS11-37-5452 to fill the a gap in the post-EVA coverage below Neil's window.]
[Frame 5480 (scan by Kipp Teague) shows the view out Buzz's window, including the flag and the TV camera. Note the cluster of boulders in the background. These may have been ejected from West Crater.]
[All the photos taken at this time are out the forward windows except AS11-37-5506 to 5509 which are photos of Earth taken out the rendezvous window over Neil's head. These may be the Earth photos that Neil remembers taking - rather than AS11-40-5923 and 5924, the two taken out on the surface, probably by Buzz. Note that none of these photos have reseau crosses, indicating that they were taken with the IVA Hasselblad. The EVA Hasselblad was purposefully left outside.]
[Aldrin, from the 1969 Technical Debrief - "This period was prolonged a bit to try to make as much use of the film remaining. I think we probably took more pictures than we should have in an effort to make sure that we covered each particular window as thoroughly as possible and with as wide a range of settings as we could before we proceeded to jettison the camera."]
[During the 1991 mission review, we talked a little about the post-EVA window pan.]
[Aldrin - "Look at how the dust kicked up around here (near the flag and the TV camera beyond). It makes it really darker, as viewed from this angle which is sort of out to the front and the right (that is, northwest out Buzz's window)."]
[Jack Schmitt has hypothesized that, during the landing, the LM engines sweep away a lot of the very fine dust and leave behind a surface with a disproportionate number of small rock fragments sticking up. These reflect more sunlight than the normal surface would, making it look brighter than normal. Certainly, from orbit, the areas around the landed LM's are brighter than the surrounding countryside. Then, when the crew walks around near the LM, they stir up the soil and return it to something closer to its normal condition. Against the abnormally bright background, then, the disturbed soil looks dark. In support of his contention, Jack notes that, at geology stations far from the LM, disturbed soil doesn't look dark.]
[I asked how the horizon looked.]
[Armstrong - "The horizon looks close. But, because it's hilly you're probably not seeing all the horizon you could see. An intermediate hill is probably cutting it out. It wasn't mountainous in our area; it was flat. But there were still crater rims and so on that probably affected how far out the observable horizon was."]
112:21:14 McCandless: Roger, Tranquility. We'd like to hold off as long as possible on the lithium hydroxide canister. Make that one of the last things you do in getting ready for the Depress, if you can. Over.
112:21:31 Aldrin: Roger. We're planning on doing that. I was just wondering how much longer we want to wait, though. We've probably got another half an hour's worth of picture taking, and I guess we could run through an eat cycle and then change the canister, and then Depress. Over.
112:21:56 McCandless: Roger. That sounds fine to us.
112:22:02 Aldrin: Well, it'll be a little crowded in here for a while.
112:22:06 McCandless: Oh, we don't mind a bit! (Pause)
Snip. Nearly an hour later:
113:17:52 Armstrong: Roger. We just finished up...We're just finishing up our eat period. Be ready to go back into Prep for Depress.
--- End quote ---
So that means the photos were taken over at least 30 minutes ending at roughly 112:52, and before they ate. They were using up the films instead of leaving them blank, and Aldrin would have been doing the same with the DAC camera later, so he could put a fresh magazine in for the liftoff.
Note that in Armstrong's statement about the flag, he is only pointing out that he saw it had changed afterward when in the LM, meaning not during the EVA and probably not immediately after getting into the LM either, which might have been impossible anyway until he and Aldrin doffed their helmets and PLSSes. So there's no inconsistency between what he said and what we see in the photos.
Maybe he could have seen it had moved after Depressing the LM and offloading the junk (at 114:05:00), then Repressing, or even after trying to sleep. There was another ten hours before Lunar liftoff at 124:22:00.79, so plenty more time for the flag to move and the sun to rise and maybe warm up flag, pole and ground. (These figures are from the Apollo 11 Timeline at Apollo by the Numbers.)
https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4029/SP-4029.htm
I don't see any big mystery here.
bknight:
--- Quote from: Kiwi on December 12, 2018, 11:38:05 AM ---This bit in the ALSJ gives some approximate times that the post-EVA photos were taken:
--- Quote ---112:20:56 Aldrin: Roger, Houston. Tranquility Base. We're in the process of using up what film we have, and I'm just getting ready to change the primary ECS canister. Over.
[They are finishing up magazines 37/R, taking AS11-37-5460 to 5555, and 39/Q, taking AS11-39-5792 to 5839. Journal Contributor Bob Farwell has selected frames from Magazine 37/R for a pan covering both windows. Note that Farwell's construction involves a certain amount of artistic license because neither Neil or Buzz actually had an unrestricted view from side to side, as shown by pans assembled from Magazine 39/Q images for the CDR window and the LMP window. Exercising a bit more artistic license, Farwell has created an enhanced version by using pre-EVA image AS11-37-5452 to fill the a gap in the post-EVA coverage below Neil's window.]
[Frame 5480 (scan by Kipp Teague) shows the view out Buzz's window, including the flag and the TV camera. Note the cluster of boulders in the background. These may have been ejected from West Crater.]
[All the photos taken at this time are out the forward windows except AS11-37-5506 to 5509 which are photos of Earth taken out the rendezvous window over Neil's head. These may be the Earth photos that Neil remembers taking - rather than AS11-40-5923 and 5924, the two taken out on the surface, probably by Buzz. Note that none of these photos have reseau crosses, indicating that they were taken with the IVA Hasselblad. The EVA Hasselblad was purposefully left outside.]
[Aldrin, from the 1969 Technical Debrief - "This period was prolonged a bit to try to make as much use of the film remaining. I think we probably took more pictures than we should have in an effort to make sure that we covered each particular window as thoroughly as possible and with as wide a range of settings as we could before we proceeded to jettison the camera."]
[During the 1991 mission review, we talked a little about the post-EVA window pan.]
[Aldrin - "Look at how the dust kicked up around here (near the flag and the TV camera beyond). It makes it really darker, as viewed from this angle which is sort of out to the front and the right (that is, northwest out Buzz's window)."]
[Jack Schmitt has hypothesized that, during the landing, the LM engines sweep away a lot of the very fine dust and leave behind a surface with a disproportionate number of small rock fragments sticking up. These reflect more sunlight than the normal surface would, making it look brighter than normal. Certainly, from orbit, the areas around the landed LM's are brighter than the surrounding countryside. Then, when the crew walks around near the LM, they stir up the soil and return it to something closer to its normal condition. Against the abnormally bright background, then, the disturbed soil looks dark. In support of his contention, Jack notes that, at geology stations far from the LM, disturbed soil doesn't look dark.]
[I asked how the horizon looked.]
[Armstrong - "The horizon looks close. But, because it's hilly you're probably not seeing all the horizon you could see. An intermediate hill is probably cutting it out. It wasn't mountainous in our area; it was flat. But there were still crater rims and so on that probably affected how far out the observable horizon was."]
112:21:14 McCandless: Roger, Tranquility. We'd like to hold off as long as possible on the lithium hydroxide canister. Make that one of the last things you do in getting ready for the Depress, if you can. Over.
112:21:31 Aldrin: Roger. We're planning on doing that. I was just wondering how much longer we want to wait, though. We've probably got another half an hour's worth of picture taking, and I guess we could run through an eat cycle and then change the canister, and then Depress. Over.
112:21:56 McCandless: Roger. That sounds fine to us.
112:22:02 Aldrin: Well, it'll be a little crowded in here for a while.
112:22:06 McCandless: Oh, we don't mind a bit! (Pause)
Snip. Nearly an hour later:
113:17:52 Armstrong: Roger. We just finished up...We're just finishing up our eat period. Be ready to go back into Prep for Depress.
--- End quote ---
So that means the photos were taken over at least 30 minutes ending at roughly 112:52, and before they ate. They were using up the films instead of leaving them blank, and Aldrin would have been doing the same with the DAC camera later, so he could put a fresh magazine in for the liftoff.
Note that in Armstrong's statement about the flag, he is only pointing out that he saw it had changed afterward when in the LM, meaning not during the EVA and probably not immediately after getting into the LM either, which might have been impossible anyway until he and Aldrin doffed their helmets and PLSSes. So there's no inconsistency between what he said and what we see in the photos.
Maybe he could have seen it had moved after Depressing the LM and offloading the junk (at 114:05:00), then Repressing, or even after trying to sleep. There was another ten hours before Lunar liftoff at 124:22:00.79, so plenty more time for the flag to move. (These figures are from the Apollo 11 Timeline at Apollo by the Numbers.)
https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4029/SP-4029.htm
I don't see any big mystery here.
--- End quote ---
Good job, Kiwi I don't see any problems either.
onebigmonkey:
There's quite a bit on the Apollo 14 hotfire test at the ALSJ, including this comparison of 16mm stills before and after:
and this text:
140:50:02 Shepard: Okay. Here we go. (Long Pause) Okay, Houston. The (S-band) antenna blew over.
All on this page:
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/a14.launch.html
bknight:
--- Quote from: onebigmonkey on December 12, 2018, 03:46:49 PM ---There's quite a bit on the Apollo 14 hotfire test at the ALSJ, including this comparison of 16mm stills before and after:
and this text:
140:50:02 Shepard: Okay. Here we go. (Long Pause) Okay, Houston. The (S-band) antenna blew over.
All on this page:
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/a14.launch.html
--- End quote ---
These images were clearly taken from different windows, the left from Shepard's window the two right images from Mitchell's window. The flag indeed does seem to change but this is from perspective. Nothing suspicious here unless you closely look at the original poster's poor image analysis knowledge.
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