Author Topic: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.  (Read 209547 times)

Offline SolusLupus

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #180 on: June 18, 2012, 05:37:11 PM »
Worldwide, anyone with an expensive radio could hear the telemetry.  How?
“Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love.” -- Kahlil Gibran

My blog about life, universe, and everything: http://solusl.blogspot.com/

Offline Laurel

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #181 on: June 18, 2012, 05:39:34 PM »
If Apollo 16 wasn't manned, how did they have their unplanned conversation with Honeysuckle Creek after temporarily losing communication with Houston? How do you pre-record and fake something like that?
"Well, my feet they finally took root in the earth, but I got me a nice little place in the stars, and I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car..."
Bruce Springsteen

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3791
    • Clavius
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #182 on: June 18, 2012, 06:13:06 PM »
NASA in NASA out.
No.  You don't get to wave your hands and say that NASA must have "somehow" faked the radio traffic because that's just what they do.

Quote
Traceable by who? Amateurs? Russians?
All of the above, and then some.

Quote
The information could have been transmitted the same way as  as it was done by Russians, once they scared Americans by their data being transmitted from lunar probes.
Or so Uncle Yuri's story goes.

The problem with unmanned relays is that it doubles the transmission time, since the interactive participants wouldn't be on the Moon and would need to have their conversation relayed up.

Quote
Here is the Russian film -(Jay`s requested reference)
I asked for a specific citation for a specific claim, and you make me sit through an hour-long Russian version of Coast To Coast AM.  Yes, I'm familiar with Yuri Mukhin; he's basically the Russian version of Jay Weidner or Bill Kaysin -- no credibility outside a few fringe conspiracy believers.  The film, after a few minutes of stock footage, is simply Mukhin making a bunch of unsubstantiated, unchallenged claims.  Do you really expect me to consider this as proof of anything?

No, I don't accept him as an authority.  Don't waste my time.  I asked for substantiation, not some old guy's speculation.  I don't take his unsubstantiated word that unnamed Russian scientists were surprised to hear the Apollo 11 crew's interpretation of star visibility.  You don't know what proof means.

Quote
Funny, in that Russian film they said that Soviet ships approached US coast to  track Apollo signals, and they got heavily jammed  by US fleet. I haven`t researched this, or checked what this guy was talking in that film.
Of course, because you've done absolutely no homework yourself.  You just ignorantly parrot conspiracy theorists and think that this will make you seem smart.  And when you're presented with factual reasons why you shouldn't just take the conspiracy theorists' word for it, you express unshakable faith in them.  You simply can't believe that they've led you astray, and you refuse to question anything they tell you.  Why are you even attempting a rational debate?  You're simply preaching a hoax gospel.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #183 on: June 18, 2012, 06:34:37 PM »
Funny, in that Russian film they said that Soviet ships approached US coast to  track Apollo signals, and they got heavily jammed  by US fleet.

What, during the height of the cold war? Never. You mean Soviet ships approached the US coast and got jammed by the US fleet. I wonder why that was then?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #184 on: June 18, 2012, 06:44:45 PM »
I'm generally opposed to negotiating special ground rules for each individual poster, because conspiracism is all about moving goalposts.  I tend to apply the same rules to everyone, as a condition of my participation:  keep it public, keep it moderated at least for decorum.

I thought the board had rules about answering questions. Some posters are concerned that their direct questions are going to get lost in the gish gallop, and one other poster has made a point that members are complaining about the gish gallop, but then inundating advanceboy with too many questions to avoid such a gish gallop.

However, I take the point that the gish gallop serves a purpose too. I do prefer to see a line drawn, calmness descend and then expose advanceboy for an empty vessel. If he cannot answer questions without invoking YouTube videos and unknown sources it serves as a record, and may expose further ignorance of the CT argument.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #185 on: June 18, 2012, 06:58:56 PM »
Hey, what I'm saying doesn't even ever get acknowledged.  Even to then be followed by bringing up more dubious claims instead of proper answers.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3791
    • Clavius
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #186 on: June 18, 2012, 06:59:38 PM »
I thought the board had rules about answering questions.

It probably does.  And as long as they apply to all posters, that's fine.  I just dislike it when individual claimants try to negotiate special rules or exceptions for themselves, or special protocols and limitations that work out to an advantage.  A poster who issues a Gish Gallop is probably going to get one in return, as a natural consequence.  In that case, I tend to favor asking the poster to select which argument he wants to pursue and holding him to it.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #187 on: June 18, 2012, 07:10:00 PM »
In that case, I tend to favor asking the poster to select which argument he wants to pursue and holding him to it.

As was the case at the IMBd, and it worked very well in that case. The switch from solar physics to Apollo 1 was seamless - Not!  ;)
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3791
    • Clavius
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #188 on: June 18, 2012, 07:14:57 PM »
I see the same thing happen on the debunking side too, unfortunately.  In the middle of being pinned down about, say, photo anomalies, someone will come along and say "What about the moon rocks?" thus giving the claimant a welcome change of subject.

Now that's a little justified:  a hoax theory has to be able to explain all the evidence.  But that's not worth derailing a productive line of questioning.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline ka9q

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3014
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #189 on: June 18, 2012, 07:15:37 PM »
...you tell me to go study photography, implying that the picture still in the video at 10;11 is ok. But it is not. You can compress or unzip as often you like, you won`t see such an anomaly around a single object within a video, while having no similar patterns  elsewhere.
This is an invalid apples-vs-images comparison. Compress and unzip are lossless compression algorithms. What originally goes in is exactly what comes out later.

But compress and zip don't work too well (if at all) on pictures, so we use entirely different forms of compression on them. Lossy compression -- what comes out is not exactly what goes in, but only something that looks very much like it provided you don't look too closely. In exchange for this slight inaccuracy, you get rid of 90% or more of the original image data. Most people consider that acceptable, and that's why JPG is so popular.

JPG works by first dividing the picture up into little squares, usually 8x8 pixels, and analyzing each one independently. Its average brightness is measured with fairly high accuracy. But the detail in the square is a different story. It is first processed with a mathematical algorithm called the discrete cosine transform, which converts it to a 2-dimensional frequency domain. Essentially it applies a set of reference patterns resembling tiny checkerboards of various sizes and shapes and says "how much does the picture look like this one?" It provides a list of coefficients that, when combined with the checkerboards, gives the original pixel values.

So far this isn't lossy. You could reverse all the steps and get exactly the original picture back. But what happens next is lossy. The coefficients are quantized, that is, their accuracy is intentionally degraded by throwing away their least significant bits. Many of them go to zero. Then the remaining coefficents are efficiently packed into the JPG file for storage and transmission.

The decompressor reverses these steps, but because the coefficients have been quantized it will regenerate pixels that won't be exactly the same as the originals. Close, but not exact. If you look very closely at them, more closely than people normally look at pictures, you'll see the effects. You are especially likely to see sharp lines between the 8x8 squares, an artifact often called blocking. With JPG this is especially common near and around sharp edges of objects -- just like the edge of Neil Armstrong's bright white suit and the black sky behind him.

So what you are seeing here are nothing more than normal, expected JPG compression artifacts. If you looked at the original digital data from the scanner, prior to JPG compression, or rescanned the original film yourself, you wouldn't see them. But the files would be huge, which is why the generally available versions of these pictures have all been JPG compressed.

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #190 on: June 18, 2012, 07:29:16 PM »
Now that's a little justified:  a hoax theory has to be able to explain all the evidence.

I am of the opinion that some of Bill Kaysing's claims were interesting and would fool the untrained or those that lacked knowledge, and his invention was quite clever, e.g. blast craters and stars being the main two. Some of his ideas such as faking rocks eluded to what NASA needed to carry out, and to this end Bill produced a story of sorts.

However, once Rene and Collier go involved, the whole thing became absurd. That's why I fail to understand how anyone can be taken in by the theory in its whole. C-rocks, waving flags and other daft ideas just make the whole idea surreal. The 'evidence' has become like one great big yarn that is so complex it's obvious how flimsy the argument has become.

It's been mentioned on the board recently, but the fidicules have to be the craziest of all ideas. I'm not sure that I follow the logic of the objects over the fidiciules and how it presents fraud. If someone can explain it to me, I would be grateful, but it is beyond me.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline raven

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #191 on: June 18, 2012, 07:46:48 PM »
The idea I believe is that the images were allegedly composted from several component images and the cross-hairs were obscured when an image was literally cut and pasted in front.
Of course, even if it was a hoax and the mundane explanation, emulsion bleed and image compression, was false, this would be an entirely ass backwards and stupid way to do things.
Why not simply take the alleged component pictures without crosshairs, and add them as a final layer over top of everything?
Like the crater claims, if there should have been one why not add one, this doesn't make any sense even if it was a hoax.

Offline Abaddon

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1132
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #192 on: June 18, 2012, 08:02:03 PM »
There are now so many claims and counter claims flying around.

Settle down folks.

It is time to hold AB's feet to the flames (to quote JayUtah) point by point.

AB's purpose is best served by FUD, and so he casts FUD. Hook line and sinker, you have been had (although, jays posts have been good, the issue is that the CT has quite sucessfully trolled).

I guess my point is, nail the loon on specific issues. This scatter gun approach is of his design.

Good trolling though.

My 2 cents.

Offline SolusLupus

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #193 on: June 18, 2012, 08:03:29 PM »
I asked one particular question and I will stick to one particular question.  How did they fake the telemetry?

This is not elementary stuff.  This is not easy.  This is even harder than rocket science.
“Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love.” -- Kahlil Gibran

My blog about life, universe, and everything: http://solusl.blogspot.com/

Offline twik

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #194 on: June 18, 2012, 08:10:40 PM »
advancedboy, you say that you "cannot conceive" that Kaysing deliberately lied. Despite his own admission.

How about these men? Are they entitled to the same blind faith you put in Kaysing?

Neil Armstrong
Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin 
Charles "Pete" Conrad
Alan Bean
Alan Shepard
Edgar Mitchell
David Scott
James Irwin
John Young)
Charles Duke
Eugene Cernan
Harrison Schmitt

Why is Kaysing more believable than the above?