Author Topic: Dave McGowan  (Read 24509 times)

Offline Daggerstab

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2014, 12:14:47 PM »
If you are looking for sciency terms, I think that "communal reinforcement" is closer to what you need.

Offline raven

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2014, 07:56:41 PM »
Ah, the magic of the Internet, bringing people together from all around the world with common interests, for good and ilk.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 11:46:59 AM »
I've had a few requests at [email protected] to comment on the video, which (like some of you) I can't bear to watch yet.  I'm kiester-deep in upgrading the cooling and airflow infrastructure in my downtown data center (which means structural mods to the 100-year-old building), so I'll have to wait a bit to watch it.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2014, 01:51:46 PM »
I've had a few requests at [email protected] to comment on the video, which (like some of you) I can't bear to watch yet.  I'm kiester-deep in upgrading the cooling and airflow infrastructure in my downtown data center (which means structural mods to the 100-year-old building), so I'll have to wait a bit to watch it.

Trust me, its 24 minutes of your life that you will want back. I could get past the first couple of minutes. I did comment on what I heard, but I expect it'll be removed and I'll be banned, dogpiled on or whatever

Quote
Duh! Why are theses dumbass hoax believers so keen on taking data out of context?

von Braun's comments: They were written in 1953! He was talking about what it would have taken AT THAT TIME with the technology available THEN. Its like having the latest available aircraft being a DC-3 and saying that a New York to London trip cannot be made in less than 10 hours. Of course that was true... THEN!!

Lunar dust: The dust only becomes a problem with an EXTENDED STAY! The longest Apollo mission was 74 hours, and the dust was becoming a serious problem. Gene Cernan (A17 Mission Commander)  has even stated that the dust would be a problem with longer stays.
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2014, 02:15:58 AM »
Of all the things that hoaxers say and do to annoy me, I think the single most offensive is to quote reputable, accomplished people out of context with the intent to misappropriate their authority and credibility without earning it for themselves. I.e., quote mining.

To pick a current example over on YT, someone saw the Northrup Grumman Lunar Lander challenge and read that as a direct admission that they didn't know how to build a lunar lander, ergo their Apollo Lunar Module didn't work. After all, why would they pay someone else for something they already knew how to do?

Ask for the exact passage in which Grumman said "our Apollo Lunar Module was a fake, it didn't work" and your question goes right through their heads like so many neutrinos.

It's tempting to conclude that they must be trolling because no one could possibly be that stupid or delusional, but I have to be careful not to assume that our minds work the same way. They may well honestly believe what they're saying, but even after years of watching some of these people I still can't decide for sure.

Offline darren r

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 12:49:56 PM »
It's tempting to conclude that they must be trolling because no one could possibly be that stupid or delusional, but I have to be careful not to assume that our minds work the same way. They may well honestly believe what they're saying, but even after years of watching some of these people I still can't decide for sure.

In the case of this guy in the comments, stupidity is the only answer :

Further to the lander only being able to use its engine once, to get off the moon, it was used to land on the moon. So even more trouble is to be seen all over the claims of a lunar landing.

The possibility of two separate engines apparently hasn't occurred to him (that, and he's never even done the most basic research).
" I went to the God D**n Moon!" Byng Gordon, 8th man on the Moon.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2014, 05:35:56 PM »
I've had a few requests at [email protected] to comment on the video, which (like some of you) I can't bear to watch yet.  I'm kiester-deep in upgrading the cooling and airflow infrastructure in my downtown data center (which means structural mods to the 100-year-old building), so I'll have to wait a bit to watch it.
There's really not much to comment on; it's just a string of false analogies.  Starting with von Braun's description of the huge rockets it would take for a direct surface-to-surface mission (which they didn't do, of course) and moving on to why lunar dust wasn't a problem for the Apollo missions (which of course it was) but will be for future missions, and the same old "why is radiation a problem now if it wasn't then?" B.S., without mentioning the difference in length of the missions.

Just goon babble. Not even worth debunking, IMHO.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline VQ

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2014, 03:42:21 AM »
I've had a few requests at [email protected] to comment on the video, which (like some of you) I can't bear to watch yet.  I'm kiester-deep in upgrading the cooling and airflow infrastructure in my downtown data center (which means structural mods to the 100-year-old building), so I'll have to wait a bit to watch it.

Datacenter cooling is in my wheelhouse. Do tell!

Offline ka9q

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2014, 05:34:41 AM »
I've been watching and sparring with the people some of us call "hoaxtards" (I wish we had a somewhat less juvenile-sounding term) and I still can't figure them out. Why does this get them so worked up?

I know why it gets us worked up. I still vividly remember Apollo as a kid, and it helped inspire me into a productive and rewarding career in engineering. Many of you will say similar things. But what about the hoaxers? Obviously it didn't have that effect on them so why do they still get so worked up?

Apollo is nearly half a century old, and all too many of the people involved have passed on. I haven't checked the population figures but it's probably safe to say that for most people alive today, Apollo is ancient history -- if I define "ancient" as anything that happened before one was born, or when one was too young to remember. Most people don't have particularly strong feelings about ancient history, one way or the other.

Is it because they hate the US Government? Okay, but it's not like there's a dearth of more recent, bigger and more relevant government activities to criticize. And many of them (like the Iraq war and NSA mass surveillance) have the advantage of having plenty of real evidence of real wrongdoing.

Yes, there's crank magnetism, and most Apollo deniers do subscribe to many other government conspiracies. But NASA still seems to engender a special fear and loathing all out of proportion to its actual size, budget and influence. Even if I wasn't a self-confessed "space nut" I think I would still see NASA as one of the most benign entities in the federal government. It spends only 1/2 of 1% of the federal budget. It has no significant rule-making or law enforcement authority. It has almost no effect on the everyday lives of most people. Even if one thinks NASA's budget is money down the drain, surely there are much bigger targets for one's ire about government waste, no?

So I can't figure it out. What is it about NASA that gets certain people so upset? Is it just the symbolism? NASA does symbolize American intellectual achievement, and Congress funded Apollo precisely for its contribution toward the "soft power" of the United States, i.e., the respect and admiration people (used to) have for this country and its achievements.

Many conspiracists do seem to view the US as an evil monolith. They can't see it as a large and diverse group of individuals with different motives and goals (to say nothing of official job descriptions). They simply can't accept that such unmitigated evil could ever do anything really cool -- and if you press them on the point, many will grudgingly admit that landing humans on the moon was pretty damn cool, uh, or it would be if anybody ever actually did it.

I've been at this a long time and I feel like I'm still no closer to really understanding these people. It's frustrating. Any thoughts or comments?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 05:38:42 AM by ka9q »

Offline darren r

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2014, 06:44:46 AM »
I've been at this a long time and I feel like I'm still no closer to really understanding these people. It's frustrating. Any thoughts or comments?

I think it's because they view it as the ur-conspiracy, the Rosetta Stone that defines everything else. They get angry because it's so 'in your face' and unquestioned by the mainstream. Unlike the '60's assassination conspiracy theories, which have garnered a whole host of respectable books, documentaries, movies etc, belief in an 'Apollo Hoax' is still widely viewed as the province of nutters and tinfoil hat wearers.

That pisses them off because they think if that particular edifice crumbled then everything else would come down with it - pull on the 'Apollo' string and everything from JFK to the Gulf of Tonkin to 9/11 to the Boston Marathon Bombing and beyond would be revealed for what they believe it to be : a succession of hoaxes and 'false flags' designed to facilitate whatever end the individual hoaxers believe in - usually a gun-grab, FEMA death camps, martial law, Illuminati-Zionist takeover scenario (interestingly, that seems to be the same vision of the future whatever the politics of the individual HB).

They get angry because the majority of people still don't believe their claims about Apollo, and therefore don't accept the Unified Conspiracy Theory, hence the constant cries of 'sheeple' and 'shill'.

I think their anger at NASA stems from the belief this can only be happening because NASA is a far more powerful and secretive organisation then most people believe.

That's my take on it, anyway!
" I went to the God D**n Moon!" Byng Gordon, 8th man on the Moon.

Offline Luckmeister

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2014, 12:49:38 PM »
Apollo is nearly half a century old, and all too many of the people involved have passed on. I haven't checked the population figures but it's probably safe to say that for most people alive today, Apollo is ancient history

And that touches upon what I have considered one reason for the hoax beliefs. I think most HBs are too young to have experienced the Moon landings and some feel they missed out on something very special. But if it never happened, they might still get to enjoy watching the first humans set foot on the Moon.

I doubt that's the main motivation but it may be part of it.
"There are powers in this universe beyond anything you know. … There is much you have to learn. … Go to your homes. Go and give thought to the mysteries of the universe. I will leave you now, in peace." --Galaxy Being

Offline raven

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2014, 03:00:25 PM »
For some, maybe. I am far too young to have seen it personally. Heck, I am too young to have even been a zygote when Challenger and her final crew met their fate.

Offline cranj

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2014, 03:58:24 PM »
Is it because they hate the US Government? Okay, but it's not like there's a dearth of more recent, bigger and more relevant government activities to criticize. And many of them (like the Iraq war and NSA mass surveillance) have the advantage of having plenty of real evidence of real wrongdoing.

I've always found this one strange.  If the objective is to bitch about the US government, it's not like there's a shortage of real things to complain about.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2014, 05:26:11 PM »
I think of it as nerd envy.

Maybe its because of the place I see most of the hoax these days (Godlike Productions), but the tenor among most of the people who post on the subject (not the same as the people who post most on the subject) is anti-science. They come across a lot like the similar low-end rabble of Creationism; a very strong undercurrent of, "Oh, you educated people think you are so smart! Well let me tell you something..!"

Particularly for the Apollo Conspiracy theory, it is the most easily accessible one for science-oriented arguments. Or to put it more properly, over-generalizations and poor models presented as if they were solid science-based arguments, allowing the poster the illusion that he is standing up to all those bullying nerds by using their own weapons back at them.

If you plumb all the way through the argument it looks very silly indeed; "Science is all wrong and you are stupid to believe it. I'm going to prove how stupid you are by doing science better than you."  But since they don't see the contradiction, it leaves them free to hop back and forth over the fence; one moment presenting a conclusion based on available data, the next eschewing the data inconvenient to that conclusion with the hand-wave, "It's all fake anyhow."

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Dave McGowan
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2014, 08:50:43 PM »
I've been watching and sparring with the people some of us call "hoaxtards" (I wish we had a somewhat less juvenile-sounding term) and I still can't figure them out. Why does this get them so worked up?
. . . . . . .

I've been at this a long time and I feel like I'm still no closer to really understanding these people. It's frustrating. Any thoughts or comments?

Your post really set me to thinking about this phenomenon.  I've never really considered the point before, but the moon hoax believers do seem to be some of the most zealous of the CTs.

I really have no idea why that is, but in pondering the question one point came to mind. Of all the events (real or imagined) at the center of wild theories, the Apollo missions are the only thing I could think of that represent a positive accomplishment.  All the other CTs that I could think of seem to center around tragic or at least negative events: 9/11, JFK, the Boston Bombings, mind control, Sandy Hook, the Holocaust, Pearl Harbor, AIDS, and so on ad nauseam.

Is it plausible that this topic attracts so much attention simply because of the sadly all too human impulse to try to build yourself up by tearing others down?  i.e. mock a great accomplishment because you'll never accomplish anything yourself?

Just food for thought.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz