Author Topic: Unexplained infertiltiy  (Read 31897 times)

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2015, 03:41:59 PM »
Advice on diet and exercise is routinely given to couples trying to conceive, not necessarily for infertility but for general health.

Doctors don't leap straight into offering IVF - it takes years to get that far.  Given that unexplained infertility is just that - unexplained - we can't say that improving nutrition will help... and couples who have got to that stage can't afford to spend another few years of trying to conceive naturally, there is a time limit (both biological and an upper limit for IVF treatments to be offered).

I think you are taking a simplistic view that doesn't take other factors into account, LionKing.  I get the impression you generally distrust doctors and medical intervention - is this true?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 03:45:17 PM by Andromeda »
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2015, 03:46:47 PM »
Sorry about the run-on sentence!

*Avoids making eye contact with Gillianren*
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline LionKing

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2015, 04:02:56 PM »
Quote
Advice on diet and exercise is routinely given to couples trying to conceive, not necessarily for infertility but for general health.

by physicians? as a standard practice?

Quote
Doctors don't leap straight into offering IVF - it takes years to get that far.  Given that unexplained infertility is just that - unexplained - we can't say that improving nutrition will help... and couples who have got to that stage can't afford to spend another few years of trying to conceive naturally, there is a time limit (both biological and an upper limit for IVF treatments to be offered).

I think you are taking a simplistic view that doesn't take other factors into account, LionKing.  I get the impression you generally distrust doctors and medical intervention - is this true?

They don't jump to IVF before "standard tests". the question is , is nutrition check up among these?

I trust medical interventions, but only if I can't solve it on my own. I am certainly with going to the physician (trusting an ethical physician only , not the one that my relative went to, I will explain in a minute).
as fro IVF, they rates of its success are not high either and is expensive. so no, trying few supplements in case of nutritional imbalance is more appropriate. I think it should be among the standard check ups. I am afraid you don't know how much a woman suffers psychologically when she can't conceive..she wants to turn every rock and it is her right..she should be told about this issue because it might make a great difference in her/his life

now what happened to my other relative? her dad used to work in a hospital and the Drs. now him. I forgot what was her problem, but she told me the physician told her that if you weren't Mr. X's daughter, I would have given you  a pile of medicines, but go and use salt and water.. she did, and she was cured.. that drove me insane frankly.
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2015, 04:14:47 PM »
by physicians? as a standard practice?

AFAIK, yes.


They don't jump to IVF before "standard tests". the question is , is nutrition check up among these?

All part of standard health questions, again AFAIK.


as fro IVF, they rates of its success are not high either and is expensive. so no, trying few supplements in case of nutritional imbalance is more appropriate.

Not if the woman is in her mid to late thirties, there just isn't time to spend a year doing that instead of IVF (but it might be a good idea to ensure a good diet alongside it - it won't hurt).


I am afraid you don't know how much a woman suffers psychologically when she can't conceive..
That's quite an assumption to make about me!  Wow!


now what happened to my other relative? her dad used to work in a hospital and the Drs. now him. I forgot what was her problem, but she told me the physician told her that if you weren't Mr. X's daughter, I would have given you  a pile of medicines, but go and use salt and water.. she did, and she was cured.. that drove me insane frankly.

So someone whose medical history you don't know in detail, had something wrong you can't identify, and an unnamed doctor allegedly made a remark you didn't hear, and she happened to get better but there is no proof the salt and water was responsible.  Sorry, but I don't see how that anecdote can be seen as useful.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline LionKing

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2015, 04:23:04 PM »
by physicians? as a standard practice?

AFAIK, yes.


They don't jump to IVF before "standard tests". the question is , is nutrition check up among these?

All part of standard health questions, again AFAIK.


as fro IVF, they rates of its success are not high either and is expensive. so no, trying few supplements in case of nutritional imbalance is more appropriate.

Not if the woman is in her mid to late thirties, there just isn't time to spend a year doing that instead of IVF (but it might be a good idea to ensure a good diet alongside it - it won't hurt).


I am afraid you don't know how much a woman suffers psychologically when she can't conceive..
That's quite an assumption to make about me!  Wow!


now what happened to my other relative? her dad used to work in a hospital and the Drs. now him. I forgot what was her problem, but she told me the physician told her that if you weren't Mr. X's daughter, I would have given you  a pile of medicines, but go and use salt and water.. she did, and she was cured.. that drove me insane frankly.

So someone whose medical history you don't know in detail, had something wrong you can't identify, and an unnamed doctor allegedly made a remark you didn't hear, and she happened to get better but there is no proof the salt and water was responsible.  Sorry, but I don't see how that anecdote can be seen as useful.

AFAIK is like an anecdote.
the medical history is that he is practicing in a hospital , and I know the hospital. whatever she had (I can ask her again when we meet) it is clear that she was told that salt and water would work for her, and if she wasn't the daughter of Mr. X a huge prescription would have been given to her. Of course not all doctors are like this, just we should make sure to go to physicians who we know at least have a good reputation..some might not be obvious until tried..at any rates, unethical conduct can happen in every discipline in life, so it is not a reason not to trust all physicians, but sometimes they can get selfish and think about their benefits only.
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2015, 04:23:41 PM »
I am afraid you don't know how much a woman suffers psychologically when she can't conceive

Excuse me? Who on earth do you think you are to make such a judgement? What exactly justifies such a claim about someone you don't even know?

Quote
she should be told about this issue because it might make a great difference in her/his life

She should be told as and when there is medical evidence that it will make a significant difference to fertility specifically rather than general health.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline LionKing

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2015, 04:27:11 PM »
the garlic is known for being anti-inflammatory and kills harmful microorganisms.

Well then I stand corrected as there does seem to be some evidence of the health benefits of garlic. However, the original point of your previous thread about side effects of pharmaceuticals versus natural remedies still stands: one set is rigorously documented because it has to be, the other is not but that doesn't mean it isn't there at all, or that natural remedies are better than processed ones.

of course not all natural remedies are safe, I know ppl who have died bcz of them.
question: do you think that sweating being practiced for decades, has un rare, or common side-effects?
It will be common sense for a person who feels bothered by intense heat not to sweat, like it would be common sense for a person who has an allergy not to take certain medications. every rule has its exceptions at the end. when we talk, we are talking about non-vulnerable populations. not children, not people predisposed to certain issues
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2015, 04:28:08 PM »
I am afraid you don't know how much a woman suffers psychologically when she can't conceive.

There are few times when words fail me. This is one of those times.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2015, 04:29:18 PM »
AFAIK is like an anecdote.


Only if you make assumptions about what knowledge I may or may not have and how I came by it.


Lots of information on general healthcare and pregnancy planning:

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/planning-pregnancy.aspx

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Fertility/Pages/Protectyourfertility.aspx

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Infertility/Pages/Prevention.aspx

« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 04:31:16 PM by Andromeda »
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2015, 04:32:16 PM »
As I said earlier, you were shown to be wrong about the sweating thing - I pointed you towards evidence that contradicted your opinion but you didn't respond.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline LionKing

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2015, 04:34:14 PM »
Quote
Excuse me? Who on earth do you think you are to make such a judgement? What exactly justifies such a claim about someone you don't even know?


I think that not sympathizing with a woman who wants to try desperately to conceive by saying that we can't say nutrition will help. Sorry Andromeda if I seemed aggressive. I would understand it if you don't understand how desperate women , or men can get. afterall, we build our experiences and impressions on what we see and a distant problem can seem to anyone not that depressing. but I have known agonies about people and just leaving a possibility unchecked is not fair for the agonies suffered, even if it has little hopes..

Quote
She should be told as and when there is medical evidence that it will make a significant difference to fertility specifically rather than general health.

that is the point we are differing on. there are millions of people who can't wait for very firm medical evidence, and anyways if they lack a nutrient they should receive it with or without the wish to conceive.
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline LionKing

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2015, 04:35:32 PM »
As I said earlier, you were shown to be wrong about the sweating thing - I pointed you towards evidence that contradicted your opinion but you didn't respond.

can you please point them again? sorry for inconvenience
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline LionKing

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2015, 04:38:03 PM »
AFAIK is like an anecdote.


Only if you make assumptions about what knowledge I may or may not have and how I came by it.


Lots of information on general healthcare and pregnancy planning:

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/planning-pregnancy.aspx

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Fertility/Pages/Protectyourfertility.aspx

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Infertility/Pages/Prevention.aspx

women, at least in our part of the world, don't often read things on the internet. it has to be in the clinic. so I ask again, is there a nutrition check up among the standard check ups done? there either is or isn't. there can be Dr.s perhaps more aware than others who might ask about these issues, but is it standardized?
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2015, 04:38:45 PM »
Who says I'm not sympathising?  Or empathising, for that matter.  I think women deserve to be given evidence-based care, that's the ethical thing to do.  False hope isn't sympathy.

You have assumed I have no sympathy for these women.  You have assumed I don't have any understanding of their feelings.  You have berated me for your assumptions.  Frankly, I feel very insulted.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Unexplained infertiltiy
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2015, 04:39:05 PM »
As I said earlier, you were shown to be wrong about the sweating thing - I pointed you towards evidence that contradicted your opinion but you didn't respond.

can you please point them again? sorry for inconvenience

I suggest you return to the thread in question.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.