Author Topic: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?  (Read 420757 times)

Offline cjameshuff

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2013, 08:43:37 PM »
EDIT: Hey, cool , 256 posts! I'm 8-bit! ;D

Actually, you just overflowed an 8-bit counter, that being post 0x100.

Offline raven

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2013, 08:45:55 PM »
Dang, you are both right.
And now I just made it worse. :'(

Offline Abaddon

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2013, 08:57:38 PM »
The way I heard it first was about mushroom pickers.
The principle still applies.
EDIT: Hey, cool , 256 posts! I'm 8-bit! ;D
Wouldn't that have been at 255 since you started at 0?
For that you must define the theoretical null poster.

Offline Abaddon

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2013, 08:59:05 PM »
Dang, you are both right.
And now I just made it worse. :'(
No they are both wrong as there does not exist anyones 0th post. LOL

Offline Noldi400

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2013, 09:16:34 PM »
No, that argument is based on pure fantasy.

- - snip for space - -



Well said.  But don't you get tired of repeating yourself?
* Previous line should be read with an admiring nod and a wry smile.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline Abaddon

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #155 on: January 25, 2013, 09:48:05 PM »
No, that argument is based on pure fantasy.

- - snip for space - -



Well said.  But don't you get tired of repeating yourself?
* Previous line should be read with an admiring nod and a wry smile.
Don't discourage him. I enjoy what he writes.

Back on topic, as an engineer, I can see myself saying:

"What? I'm wrong?, I made a mistake? Quick, show me where."
And I have.

I cannot imagine ever saying:

"No I cannot be wrong, therefore you must be wrong"

This alone puts our current protagonists claim to expertise in the trash.

Offline frenat

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #156 on: January 25, 2013, 10:35:22 PM »
Dang, you are both right.
And now I just made it worse. :'(
No they are both wrong as there does not exist anyones 0th post. LOL
A 0th post does not exist but one can have 0 posts.
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Offline nomuse

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #157 on: January 26, 2013, 01:28:57 AM »
No, that argument is based on pure fantasy.

- - snip for space - -



Well said.  But don't you get tired of repeating yourself?
* Previous line should be read with an admiring nod and a wry smile.
Don't discourage him. I enjoy what he writes.

Back on topic, as an engineer, I can see myself saying:

"What? I'm wrong?, I made a mistake? Quick, show me where."
And I have.

I cannot imagine ever saying:

"No I cannot be wrong, therefore you must be wrong"

This alone puts our current protagonists claim to expertise in the trash.

I feel the same way.  You can bluff your colleagues, and you can bluff management, but you can't bluff the universe.  If I made a mistake, I'd rather it was caught by something OTHER than the laws of physics.

Offline Inanimate Carbon Rod

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #158 on: January 26, 2013, 07:00:01 AM »
No, that argument is based on pure fantasy.

- - snip for space - -

Well said.  But don't you get tired of repeating yourself?
* Previous line should be read with an admiring nod and a wry smile.


I expect Jay has a bazillion text files of rebuffs, facts and statistics meticulously indexed to call up when required.
Formerly Supermeerkat. Like you care.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #159 on: January 26, 2013, 10:31:32 AM »
No, that argument is based on pure fantasy.

- - snip for space - -

Well said.  But don't you get tired of repeating yourself?
* Previous line should be read with an admiring nod and a wry smile.
Don't discourage him. I enjoy what he writes.

Heaven forbid. That's why I put the stage direction in... it wasn't intended as discouraging, just admiration at Jay's dedication to addressing issues in his extraordinarily understandable way.  Even though it falls on deaf ears (as far as his primary target is concerned) the rest of us benefit.


Quote
Quote
Back on topic, as an engineer, I can see myself saying:

"What? I'm wrong?, I made a mistake? Quick, show me where."
And I have.

I cannot imagine ever saying:

"No I cannot be wrong, therefore you must be wrong"

This alone puts our current protagonists claim to expertise in the trash.


ITA. Someone here has a sig with an Asimov quote, something about the best results from an experiment coming when the scientist says "That's funny...".  Results that differ from our expectations are almost always the beginning of a new understanding.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline Andromeda

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #160 on: January 26, 2013, 10:43:21 AM »
ITA. Someone here has a sig with an Asimov quote, something about the best results from an experiment coming when the scientist says "That's funny...".  Results that differ from our expectations are almost always the beginning of a new understanding.

Me.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #161 on: January 26, 2013, 11:40:18 AM »
I expect Jay has a bazillion text files of rebuffs, facts and statistics meticulously indexed to call up when required.

Well aside from www.clavius.org, no.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Bob B.

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #162 on: January 26, 2013, 02:01:46 PM »
Yes, genius, I have another stupid argument for you.  6 times they found nothing interesting?  But they kept going back to the lunar equator?  Now that's stupid.  Why didn't they go to the north pole?  They would have found tons of water and people would have been thrilled to death.  But, no... all they did was bring back moon rocks, and more moon rocks.  They might have found some kind of life in that water. But noooo... lets go to the equator again, and, duhhhh... we'll bring back some more moon rocks.

First, saying “they found nothing interesting” is an incredibly ignorant statement.  Saying that to a lunar geologist is like telling a marine biologist that there’s nothing of interest in the Oceans.  The statement is so ignorant, in fact, that I have to believe you’re just trolling.

Second, the lunar poles didn’t hold the interest in 1969 that they do today.  The idea that large amounts of water could be found in the permanently shadowed craters near poles didn’t develop until the 1990s.

Third, an engineer would recognize that not all parts of the Moon are equal in regard to what it takes to reach them.  Some parts of the Moon require more delta-v to reach than other parts.  Consequently, some parts of the Moon were out of reach of Apollo.

Furthermore, all the Apollo mission where initially launched on free return trajectories.  A free return trajectory greatly limits the areas of the Moon that can be reached to those in the equatorial zone.  Starting with Apollo 12 the missions began to use hybrid trajectories, which started out as free return trajectories but deviated from this after a mid-course correction.  This expanded the area of available landing sites but, since they stated out on as a free return, they were still limited to a low inclination band relatively close to the lunar equator.  This was a trade-off for having the safety factor of an initial free return.  However, with only five landings made, there were plenty of interesting and diverse sites available in the near side equatorial region that there was no need to consider high latitude landing sites.

Finally, consider that as the LM is on the surface of the Moon, the Moon is rotating.  This causes the landing site to move in relation to the orbital plane of the CSM.  Before the LM can launch and perform a rendezvous, the CSM must perform a plane change to bring the landing site back into the plane of the orbit.  If the CSM is in a low inclination orbit with the landing site near the equator, the movement of the landing site is mostly within the plane of the orbit, with only a small amount of movement outside (perpendicular to) the plane of the orbit.  This means that the CSM has to make only a  small plane change.  On the other hand, if the CSM is in a high inclination orbit with the landing site near a pole, as the Moon rotates the landing site moves mostly out of the plane of the orbit.  This means that after several days on the Moon, the CSM must perform a very large plane change to bring the landing site back into the orbital plane.  Anyone familiar with orbital mechanics knows that large plane changes are very costly in terms of delta-v, hence propellant.  The Apollo CSM simply didn’t have the capacity to perform such a maneuver.

In summary, Apollo was limited by the amount of propellant it could carry to landing sites in the equatorial region.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #163 on: January 26, 2013, 03:06:25 PM »
If we fake it, the chances of success are 100% and nobody will ever suspect us.  What do you want to do Mr. President?

If someone had told the me, as the President, that faking the Moon missions would be 100% guaranteed to succeed and that no one would ever suspect us I would laugh in their face and then fire them for suggesting that we commit such a massive fraud.

Faking the Moon missions would be guaranteed to fail. How would you know (in 1969) that the Russians weren't going try to land right next to the spots that NASA claimed Apollo landed at? How do you stop people from photographing the landing sites basically for the rest of time? What's the point of faking it if some guy like Elon Musk is might start his own private space program someday? How do you guarantee that the hoax won't be exposed by a NASA employee with a guilty conscience?

The only thing more ridiculous than the hoax theory is the fact that you actually think it was 100% guaranteed to succeed. It shows that you haven't really thought it through properly.
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I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #164 on: January 26, 2013, 03:13:46 PM »
Furthermore, all the Apollo mission where initially launched on free return trajectories.

Someone who is more up with orbital mechanics may be able to correct me if I'm wrong, but AIUI, this was a very big factor in saving the crew of Apollo XIII. Had the trajectory not started out as a free return, it might have been much more difficult, if not impossible to have got them back.
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.