Author Topic: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?  (Read 420593 times)

Offline raven

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #405 on: January 29, 2013, 03:53:33 PM »
Well. Gordon Cooper did something like that, rather the reverse actually, to deorbit his Faith 7 capsule. This is just my layman's conjecture, but it would not surprise me.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #406 on: January 29, 2013, 03:59:33 PM »
Assume that Eagle had some kind of catastrophic computer/electronic failure.  Would it be possible for a human being with Neil Armstrong's level of skill and training, assuming that the absolutely essential systems were still somewhat functional, to manually lift off and get into an orbit from which Collins could maneuver to a rendezvous?

I'm not an expert by any means, but it would amaze me if it was rendered impossible as long as they still had control over the ascent engine and RCS system. Remember, on Apollo 13 they performed one burn without any computer assistance by way of keeping Earth in one window as a fixed reference point and timing the burn with a wristwatch.

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But despite the stranded-on-the-moon scenario, I just can't picture Aldrin or Armstrong sitting down and waiting to die while there was anything at all they could reroute, hot-wire, or bang on with a hammer.

Keep in mind this would also be true of the people at Mission Control. If they could hammer out a launch plan involving engine firing times, using the RCS at specific times to pitchover, and find some way for Amrstrong and Aldrin to have a visual reference to keep the spacecraft steady, then they could probably do it using the manual controls and a wristwatch to time the burns.
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Offline dwight

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #407 on: January 29, 2013, 04:10:19 PM »
I was actually one of the people who advised Mark to keep the As-204 audio complete for historical accuracy.

Thanks, I'm glad you did.  I actually own way too few of the Spacecraft Films series.  I keep hoping people will gift them to me, but it seems they never do.  However on the plus side, we have a public monitor in our office pod here, and we run through what we have on a regular basis.

Mark does frequent specials, and Apollo 1 is a title that pops up frequently. Free shipping was one of the last actions he did. If I'm not mistaken the current offer is 10% of certain titles. Check out the blog on www.spacecraftfilms.com
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 04:13:34 PM by dwight »
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Offline nomuse

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #408 on: January 29, 2013, 04:11:51 PM »
Puts me in mind of some of those golden-age SF stories, when the computer is on the fritz and the pilots are frantically working their slide rules to plot a course back home.

Offline raven

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #409 on: January 29, 2013, 04:20:34 PM »
Puts me in mind of some of those golden-age SF stories, when the computer is on the fritz and the pilots are frantically working their slide rules to plot a course back home.
In the real old stories, the computer being on the fritz means some guy (or gal, lots of women in that field) is taking a sick day. ;D

Offline Al Johnston

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #410 on: January 29, 2013, 05:19:36 PM »
Puts me in mind of some of those golden-age SF stories, when the computer is on the fritz and the pilots are frantically working their slide rules to plot a course back home.

Like Arthur C Clarke's Into The Comet, where they build and use wire & bead abaci... ;D
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Offline ka9q

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #411 on: January 29, 2013, 06:12:10 PM »

No, they're (zero gravity sequences in '2001') not. They're really not. They're ingeniously shot but they do not pass muster under close examination as true zero gravity footage.
Anybody who thinks the reduced or zero-g sequences in '2001' are accurate hasn't seen the movie recently (or ever). While a breakthrough for its time, it was released in the spring of 1968, half a year before the first manned Apollo flight. No one had ever seen astronauts in a weightless environment big enough to actually let them move, and it would be five more years before astronauts could move around in a volume even remotely comparable to the huge spaceships we see in '2001'.

Kubrick, Clarke and their audiences had no real idea how weightless people would actually look, behave and adapt. So besides the obvious physics errors like the pen and the food tray, we get absurdities like the flight attendant in velcro shoes walking tediously down the aisle. A real astronaut would have just pushed off, sailed to the front of the cabin in a few seconds and turned a somersault to go through the door to the flight deck.

We see many similar scenes in the Discovery. Only the centrifuge is in artificial gravity. The command module (where Frank and Dave monitor each others' EVAs) and the pod bay (where they begin their EVAs, analyze the AE-35 unit, and discuss Hal) are in zero-G, just like Hal's "brain room". But neither actor moves as we now know every real astronaut moves in a roomy weightless area, especially when they've been in space for a long time. It's that same tedious walking on velcro shoes.

Obviously this was done to simplify filming, but that just raises the question why, if the Apollo footage was faked on earth, those doing the faking made it so much harder for themselves with so many gratuitous, lengthy scenes of people and objects in zero- and reduced gravity. Any one of these sequences could have failed the test of time and eventually tripped them up -- if they hadn't been real.

Ron Howard knew his 1994 audience for 'Apollo 13' was a lot more sophisticated than the 1968 audience for '2001', so he went to great expense to use real zero gravity for at least some of his space sequences, hiding the short durations possible in an airplane with frequent edits. It wouldn't have worked otherwise.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 06:53:50 PM by ka9q »

Offline ka9q

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #412 on: January 29, 2013, 06:19:29 PM »
Puts me in mind of some of those golden-age SF stories, when the computer is on the fritz and the pilots are frantically working their slide rules to plot a course back home.
Or where Captain Kirk successfully talks said fritzed computer into destroying itself. Ah, those were the days...

"Your logic was impeccable, Captain. We are in grave danger."

Offline Noldi400

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #413 on: January 29, 2013, 06:24:06 PM »
raven:
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Well. Gordon Cooper did something like that, rather the reverse actually, to deorbit his Faith 7 capsule. This is just my layman's conjecture, but it would not surprise me.

Actually, I thought of that while I was typing that post. Not taking anything away from Gordo - he was some helluva pilot - but he only had to hold attitude for a few seconds while the retros fired. That's a far cry from several minutes of guiding a busted spacecraft near the ground.

Assume that Eagle had some kind of catastrophic computer/electronic failure.  Would it be possible for a human being with Neil Armstrong's level of skill and training, assuming that the absolutely essential systems were still somewhat functional, to manually lift off and get into an orbit from which Collins could maneuver to a rendezvous?

I'm not an expert by any means, but it would amaze me if it was rendered impossible as long as they still had control over the ascent engine and RCS system. Remember, on Apollo 13 they performed one burn without any computer assistance by way of keeping Earth in one window as a fixed reference point and timing the burn with a wristwatch.

I'm sure the hardware was up to it; my question was whether, without computer control of the RCS, a human pilot could keep the LM stable enough to achieve orbit.  The ascent stage was pretty stable just by virtue of its design and the location of its engine and propellant tanks, much more so than it looks in an exterior drawing. Still, is it likely that a human could have made fine-tuning adjustments quickly enough?

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Quote
But despite the stranded-on-the-moon scenario, I just can't picture Aldrin or Armstrong sitting down and waiting to die while there was anything at all they could reroute, hot-wire, or bang on with a hammer.

Keep in mind this would also be true of the people at Mission Control. If they could hammer out a launch plan involving engine firing times, using the RCS at specific times to pitchover, and find some way for Armstrong and Aldrin to have a visual reference to keep the spacecraft steady, then they could probably do it using the manual controls and a wristwatch to time the burns.
I'm sure of it, along with every engineer, assistant, and errand boy at Grumman.
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Offline alexsanchez

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #414 on: January 29, 2013, 06:30:55 PM »
If I have any other questions I know where to come.
I have a question for you. Actually, I have several, but this one is forefront. Why the sudden change?
While I still maintain it was possible to fake, there's adequate argument to maintain that it wasn't.  There's still a few things I want to check out though.
You are going to attempt a fringe reset, right?
Please explain this clip.  The astronaut is clearly hoisted up while trying to stand up.  (it's cued at 2:05)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Zz9Bzi_GyD0#t=125s

Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #415 on: January 29, 2013, 06:34:26 PM »
Please explain this clip.

Diminished gravity.

Quote
The astronaut is clearly hoisted up while trying to stand up.

No, the astronaut is operating in diminished gravity.

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Offline AtomicDog

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #416 on: January 29, 2013, 06:39:27 PM »
Cue the William Tell Overture.
"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death." - Isaac Asimov

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #417 on: January 29, 2013, 06:42:38 PM »
Please explain this clip.  The astronaut is clearly hoisted up while trying to stand up.  (it's cued at 2:05)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Zz9Bzi_GyD0#t=125s

Didn't last long, did you? You're painfully transparent, predictable and dull.

And you still don't get how research works. You are asking us to explain somethng after you have drawn your conclusion. That is NOT how to do proper research.

Please explain why you think he should not be able to do that in lower gravity and in a space suit with a tendency to adopt the standing configuration when pressurised, and with assistance from his colleague.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 06:51:10 PM by Jason Thompson »
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Offline ka9q

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #418 on: January 29, 2013, 06:42:58 PM »
Assume that Eagle had some kind of catastrophic computer/electronic failure.  Would it be possible for a human being with Neil Armstrong's level of skill and training, assuming that the absolutely essential systems were still somewhat functional, to manually lift off and get into an orbit from which Collins could maneuver to a rendezvous?
I think the computers were considered "absolutely essential systems". That's why they had an AGS (Abort Guidance System) completely separate from the PNGS (Primary Navigation and Guidance System, the LM's version of the Apollo Guidance Computer). You hear the crews comparing them constantly during descent and ascent.

The AGS had its own "strapdown" gyro sensors, less accurate but simpler and more reliable than the gimballed PNGS platform. As the name implies, AGS could only perform an abort, not a landing.

You're right that Collins would have been able to effect a rescue provided Eagle got into some kind of orbit, presuming the orbital planes were sufficiently close. The issue of manual flight into orbit was a favorite flash point between the engineers and the astronauts, who after all were gung-ho military test pilots who called it a "joystick" for a reason.

But I think the engineers were right on this one. The manual fallback modes that did exist in Apollo, such as the CDR's ability to fly the Saturn into earth orbit, still assumed the proper functioning of at least one inertial guidance platform. Without it the crew would have been totally blind, and even the best pilot can't fly that way.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 06:45:51 PM by ka9q »

Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #419 on: January 29, 2013, 06:47:07 PM »
The voice on the video is David Percy.  He was given two separate opportunities to defend his hoax claims face-to-face with me, by two independent filmmakers.  He refused both times.   Percy used to run a web forum on his site much like this one.  I used it to challenge his claims about Apollo video and photography.  When he was unable to answer the questions, the web forum suddenly disappeared "for maintenance" for three months, then disappeared altogether without a trace.  Yet on his web site he was using cherry-picked quotes from me, from that site, carefully edited to appear to support him.  Then they had a guestbook.  Again, people began to point out his egregious errors.  When it was pointed out that his own sample photographs didn't obey his "Photo Rules," again the feedback portion disappeared without a trace.  He no longer participates in the Moon landing hoax debate; last heard he was hiding out somewhere in France.  His book and video are still for sale, but he will not answer any questions.

Percy talks over the native audio in the video.  In the video the prone astronaut gives his hand to the standing astronaut.  The standing astronaut tells him to press against him, to help him to stand.  Percy edits that comment out of his version of the video.  Why?  Is it so the viewer won't understand everything that's going in the video and will be more likely to accept the pasted-on interpretation that some hypothetical, invisible wire is employed?

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