Author Topic: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)  (Read 91684 times)

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #210 on: January 25, 2013, 10:48:55 AM »
I think in great part to the fact the information is not so readily flowing for it. Look at how no (or nearly no) HB approaches ASTP or Skylab with the same fury as they do Apollo. The video downlinks are to be found but not collected in one place like ALSJ or AFJ. In the case of SL and ASTP the vehicles were identical to those used on Apollo, yet there is very little "hoaxery" mentioned.

Probably because the majority of them have no idea about ASTP. If you use Eternidad195 as an example, she just regurgitated Jack White's rubbish without doing an iota of research. I think that she is pretty typical of the "mainstream" hoaxie..they have such a desire to scream "hoax" that they peddle the same old guff without doing an iota of research. Hence they know nothing about programs like ASTP or Apollo Applications. It's probably the same reason why people like Alexsanchez is so adamant that orbital rendezvous is impossible in Apollo, yet they aren't aware of Gemini. They seem totally unaware of Gemini or Mercury. They probably think that the whole thing started with Apollo, which probably is why some of them might think that doing everything that Apollo accomplished in a decade is impossible....they are unaware that Apollo stood on the shoulders of the Gemini test program, that developed most of the key components of Apollo.

Lets face it...if any "normal" human being spent an afternoon with Wikipedia looking into the standard hoaxie arguments, then they'd rapidly come across Clavius.org, the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal and here. They'd soon find enough evidence to go "hmmm, this hoax argument might be BS". Yet you get jokers like Alexsanchez, DAKDAK, Eternidad195 turning up, spouting their regurgitated claptrap and getting a good smacking for their efforts.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline dwight

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #211 on: January 25, 2013, 11:12:44 AM »
Well, I might be smacked down for daring to say this, but I actually prefer Skylab to Apollo. I think what they achieved on that program, given the budget they had, far outshined anything on Apollo.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:20:11 AM by dwight »
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Offline Laurel

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #212 on: January 25, 2013, 11:22:38 AM »
Pete Conrad said his Skylab flight, not Apollo 12, was the high point of his career.
"Well, my feet they finally took root in the earth, but I got me a nice little place in the stars, and I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car..."
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Offline raven

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #213 on: January 25, 2013, 11:25:46 AM »
Well, it was an impressive piece of bodging, but it could not have been done for nearly that expense if Apollo had not existed to provide things like the Saturn V, the LM, and the CSM. Valuable experience on EVA repair was also gained, however inadvertently.
It would have been nice if other parts of the Apollo Applications Program had gone forward, especially the flyby of Venus.
I have one question though. I know they replaced the fuel cells with batteries because the cryogenic oxygen and hydrogen would have escaped during such long duration missions, but what did they do then for breathing air on the trip up and and, most importantly, back down?

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #214 on: January 25, 2013, 11:28:00 AM »
Well, I might be smacked down for daring to say this, but I actually prefer Skylab to Apollo. I think what they achieved on that program, given the budget they had, far outshined anything on Apollo.

They achieved loads on a very tight budget, in comparison to the $billions spent on Apollo.

Having said that, Apollo was and is the only manned project to get properly into deep space....everything else has been in LEO. It's like we ran briefly out onto our driveway and ever since then we've been content to play on our doorstep. Meanwhile, the Universe is driving past our gate every day.....
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #215 on: January 25, 2013, 11:30:51 AM »
Pete Conrad said his Skylab flight, not Apollo 12, was the high point of his career.

I'm not surprised, much as Armstrong considered his X-15 experience more valuable and rewarding than Apollo.  Participants often have a different perspective than spectators.  Conrad's Skylab mission required skill, resourcefulness, adaptiveness, innovation, and judgment.  His Apollo mission was, not to diminish it, pretty by-the-book.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #216 on: January 25, 2013, 11:37:44 AM »
You know, I just realized a curious thing - you constantly get HB's sneering things like "you just believe what the government tells you"; yet I don't think I've ever heard anyone justify their acceptance of the Apollo record by saying anything like "the government/NASA says it happened, so it must be true". Surely that must be one of the longest lived straw-man arguments in recent history.

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Here's an interesting thought...why does the HB bandwagon tend to focus on the US space program? They never seem to claim that the Soviet's program was faked. If anyone had the government clout to fake anything, it was the Soviets.

Actually, there's a CT that Gagarin's flight was a hoax - at least one book ( Gagarin: A Cosmic Lie, Istvin Nemere 1990) has been published on the subject. Some HBs say that this is why the USSR didn't blow the whistle on Apollo; for some incomprehensible reason the US and Soviets were partners in the whole space travel hoax.



"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline raven

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #217 on: January 25, 2013, 11:50:08 AM »
What I like to bring up when that particular theory is broached is that the USSR *did* lie about Gagarin's flight, initially claiming he landed with his craft as per the rules set forth at the time that a human orbiting flight had to end with the participant landing with their vehicle to qualify.
If Gagarin's flight was totally fake, that embarrassing truth would also be a lie. Why make up a lie that would be just as potentially humiliating as what conspiracy theorists claim is the truth.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 12:33:48 PM by raven »

Offline sts60

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #218 on: January 25, 2013, 11:59:40 AM »
I have no clue how a lunar rendezvous is achieved?  Either does NASA.
I am baffled how someone representing themselves as a veteran aerospace engineer - especially someone claiming to have GNC experience - could make such a frankly ignorant claim.

The below is a small sample of reports and analyses freely available online - no exertion needed.

NASA TM-111236, Enchanted rendezvous: John C. Houbolt and the genesis of the lunar-orbit  rendezvous concept

E. Aldrin doctoral thesis, Line-of-sight guidance techniques for manned orbital rendezvous

NASA TM-X-65026, Visibility and optical tracking studies for the concentric flight plan of lunar orbit rendezvous

NASA CR-154207, Lunar orbit rendezvous reference trajectory data package. Volume 1: Apollo error analysis. Description of procedures and computer programs
This is one of many volumes on this topic; for example, see also
NASA CR-136969, Lunar orbit rendezvous reference trajectory data package: Analysis of LOR ascent maneuvers with plane change

NASA TM-X-65130, Study of Earth Orbit Simulation of Lunar Orbit Rendezvous

NASA TN-D-1623, A Parametric Investigation of the Lunar-Orbit-Rendezvous Scheme

NASA TM-74736, Manned lunar-landing through use of lunar-orbit rendezvous, Volume 1 and Volume 2

NASA TM-X-64487, Apollo rendezvous with command module active

NASATN-D-7388, Apollo experience  report: Evolution of the rendezvous-maneuver plan for the lunar-landing missions

You said you worked on space station guidance and control.  What exactly did you do, and for whom?

Offline gillianren

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #219 on: January 25, 2013, 12:30:45 PM »
I think they have to claim that the Soviet space program was at least mostly true because they think (without really understanding the issues at hand) that it makes the US space program look incompetent.  If they were so flawed, how come they got good enough to beat the Soviets to the Moon, huh?  Huh?  The fact that it only takes about two minutes of research to show how it happened is just more evidence that few HBs ever do two minutes of research.  Presumably, most of the ones who do go, "Oh.  Well, I guess we landed on the Moon, then."
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #220 on: January 25, 2013, 01:38:12 PM »
I am baffled how someone representing themselves as a veteran aerospace engineer - especially someone claiming to have GNC experience - could make such a frankly ignorant claim.

When you're out of ammunition, fix bayonets and charge.  Similarly the gambit for the conspiracy theorist who has been caught pretending to be an engineer is to amplify the boldness until it's time for the flounce.  He still probably believes he can get a few people to believe he knows enough about what he's talking about to give him benefit of the doubt.

I know you're answering with strictly NASA materials because the challenge was thrown that NASA didn't know about them.  But taking it to the opposite extreme, the notion that no one knows how to accomplish and orbital rendezvous is literally ignorant.  One doesn't have to go to NASA to learn it; it's in all the textbooks, and the same principles are followed in commercial endeavors.  It's provably correct in how it follows from first principles in basic physics, and it's demonstrably correct in how it's done by people who aren't NASA.  It's literally as ignorant as saying that calculus must be fake and no one knows how to do it, and if NASA claims to know how to do calculus they're wrong.  It's the sort of claim you make if your starting premise is that NASA is evil.

This is the layman's intuitive concept of the relationship among knowledge, NASA, and the rest of the world.  Most layman believe that NASA is the fount of all knowledge regarding space, and that people who purport to operate in space do so dumbly only because NASA tells them how and could convincingly lie to them if necessary.  Hence in this model, "orbital rendezvous" is a mystery no one knows about, and NASA claims to have accomplished it by means only NASA knows, and which might in fact turn out to be totally bogus if examined by anyone else.

The "black box" model of NASA is laughably comical to anyone who actually works in aerospace.  There you realize just how much NASA depends on the aerospace industry (and associated academic institutions) to spoon-feed them technology, innovation, and operational equipment and know-how.  NASA is primarily a funding agency, with the actual work being carried out by industry and academia.  And these industrial and academic partners do the same sort of work for commercial clients.  The industry, collectively, and the academic partners, also collectively, hold the repository of operational space flight experience.  They employ it for NASA, just as they employ it for others.  Orbital rendezvous works for NASA because it works for everyone else, and there's no hiding it.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #221 on: January 25, 2013, 09:47:06 PM »
 
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But taking it to the opposite extreme, the notion that no one knows how to accomplish and orbital rendezvous is literally ignorant.

Hey, having studied the matter as a layman for a while now, and practiced on simulations, even I know how to do that. And if know the current orbital elements, it's totally irrelevant where either launched from.

Obviously I couldn't do it as quickly and accurately as an actual working engineer like Jay, and nowhere near as well as astronauts who practice for hours on end, but the process isn't mysterious, just hard to execute.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #222 on: January 26, 2013, 03:58:08 AM »
This is the layman's intuitive concept of the relationship among knowledge, NASA, and the rest of the world.  Most layman believe that NASA is the fount of all knowledge regarding space,

That is absolutely true.  I routinely field questions such as "Why did NASA decide Pluto is not a planet?" and "What proof do NASA have for the Big Bang?".
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #223 on: January 26, 2013, 04:15:49 AM »
This is the layman's intuitive concept of the relationship among knowledge, NASA, and the rest of the world.  Most layman believe that NASA is the fount of all knowledge regarding space,

That is absolutely true.  I routinely field questions such as "Why did NASA decide Pluto is not a planet?" and "What proof do NASA have for the Big Bang?".

There are so many things wrong with that question you could write a fair-sized book trying to unpack it.

Offline dwight

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Re: Brilliant debunk video of hoax claims - HBs take note (if you can)
« Reply #224 on: January 26, 2013, 04:44:54 AM »
When I was at alexsanchez's alleged old turf last year (KSC) I was actually struck by how open everybody was to questions and the like. No matter who I spoke with there was never a "cant tell you that" or shifty dogs looking slyly left to right [Simpsons reference].
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