ApolloHoax.net
Apollo Discussions => The Reality of Apollo => Topic started by: onebigmonkey on March 24, 2015, 03:19:38 AM
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A truly astonishing piece of work:
http://apollo17.org/
The guy behind it details the work here
http://benfeist.com/project-apollo-17/
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A truly astonishing piece of work:
http://apollo17.org/
It is indeed jaw-dropping material and will be a marvellous thing if he ever gets it completed. I spent much more time there than intended. Thanks for the link.
Noticed the following, fourteen lines into the transcript:
The cue-ball is an angle of a tacmeter which is perched above the launch escape system, and it's read by the spacecraft commander in the spacecraft.
Should that instead be "...angle-of-attack meter..."?
And just after launch:
|000:00:57|CC|17, stand by for Mode I Bravo -
|000:00:59|CC|MARK. Mode I Bravo.
|000:01:01|CDR|Roger. I Bravo; we're GO at 1 minute.
The few times I've seen that elsewhere, it has been written "Mode 1 Bravo", probably meaning Mode 1B.
I imagine the author would need help with things like that -- he can't possibly know everything about Apollo.
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It's probably a result of using text recognition software somewhere in the history of that text.
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Should that instead be "...angle-of-attack meter..."?
The Q-ball is an angle-of-attack meter...
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Right. The Q-ball measures angle of attack, which is why it's at the most forward point of the vehicle. It also measures attitude (roll, pitch, yaw) rates. If any of these values exceed preset limits during first stage flight, an automatic abort is triggered.
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Hi everyone. I'm the author of apollo17.org. Thanks for your kind words!
I certainly don't know everything about the Apollo missions, but I did listen to every second of audio and correct the transcript accordingly. Most of the expertise required to know what they were saying was already in the original transcript. I've made no attempts at interpretation here. It's here as raw info, as close to what was spoken as possible. In my mind, making the entire mission interesting and accessible in its full detail is the best medicine for conspiracy theorists. When faced with the full detail, I have seen hobby-deniers reconsider.
I corrected the cue-ball error in the very first utterance. This was a transcription error made in 1972 believe it or not--in the public affairs transcript, which doesn't appear to have been written by an expert. Thanks for the heads up. "Mode I Bravo" is supposed to be written that way as per mission documentation. Yes, Bravo means "B" as it does here, but the flight modes were so important they became known as I Bravo, I Charlie, II, III, etc.
I just made some additional small corrections and greatly improved the table of contents up to the end of EVA-1 to call out some interesting moments. Have a look. http://apollo17.org
Thanks again for your words of encouragement. It's really satisfying to see people visiting the site and enjoying themselves. You can read about the process I undertook to build the thing here if you're interested http://benfeist.com/project-apollo-17/
Thanks,
Ben
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Welcome onboard. It's a big job, that transcript. Well done.
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Welcome Ben. It's always good to come across another dedicated Apollo Nut. They are usually much better company than most hoax-believers. :)
I corrected the cue-ball error in the very first utterance.
That should be "Q-ball" not "cue-ball" in two places -- see posts 3 & 4 above. I nearly missed Gwiz's correction due to it sounding the same.
And a little further down Skip "Shovin" should be Skip "Chauvin" -- it's correctly spelled in the next paragraph.
At -01:56:35, Alan "Sheppard" should have only one "p".
This was a transcription error made in 1972 believe it or not--in the public affairs transcript, which doesn't appear to have been written by an expert...
There's a little discussion about the errors in the transcripts in this thread:--
Apollo 11 annotated landing
http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=428.msg15397#msg15397
In post 13, JayUtah says:-- "The original Net-1 transcripts were hurriedly typed by various Houston area temp typists, very few of whom had any knowledge of space jargon. There are some howlers in there, and at least one author several years ago tried to spin those errors (but also the correctly-rendered jargon) into something nefarious."
I just made some additional small corrections and greatly improved the table of contents...
Please try to include the term "Twinkletoes" in the TOC for the hilarious episode when Jack Schmitt arses up starting at 144:50:52 at what was later called "Ballet Crater" in remembrance.
The description in the ALSJ is priceless, and it's great that Ed Fendell caught the event with the TV camera.Geology Station 3 at Ballet Crater
144:50:52 Schmitt: I won't...Aaaahh! (Pause)
[Jack has knocked the SCB over, scattering full sample bags. He drops to his hands and knees, facing upslope, gets the SCB standing upright, retrieves the sample bags, and stows them in the SCB without getting up.]
144:51:05 Schmitt: You don't mind a little dirt here and there, do you, gang? (Pause)
144:51:16 Parker: No. (Long Pause)
[Jack leans back to get his PLSS over his heels and kicks upright. He makes it, but drops the SCB in the process. He goes to one knee to retrieve it but stumbles and falls on his chest. He gets up successfully and goes to the scoop.]
144:51:46 Cernan: Oh, dadgummit! (Pause) Well...
[From later evidence, Gene is having trouble re-attaching the rake to the extension handle. Meanwhile, Jack's unused sample bags have fallen off his camera again.]
144:51:53 Parker: Hey, Gene, would you go over and help Twinkletoes, please?
[Jack drops the SCB on the ground.]
144:52:01 Schmitt: I tell you, you fix that camera bracket so the bags stay on and I'll be a lot better off.
[Jack turns away from the TV camera while he examines his 70-mm camera to see how dirty it is.]
144:52:05 Parker: Roger.
144:52:07 Cernan: Want some help, Jack? I'll be there.
144:52:08 Schmitt: No! I don't need any help.
144:52:09 Cernan: Okay.
144:52:10 Schmitt: I just need better bags.
144:52:11 Parker: Jack, you might worry about whether your camera lens is dirty or clean, Jack. I don't know what you'd do about it.
144:52:19 Schmitt: I'm very worried about that.
144:52:20 Parker: I don't know what you'd do about it, but you might worry about it.
And later:
144:56:23 Parker: And be advised that the switchboard here at MSC (Manned Spacecraft Center, now the Johnson Space Center) has been lit up by calls from the Houston Ballet Foundation requesting your services for next season.
144:56:34 Schmitt: I should hope so.
[Schmitt - "They eventually named this Ballet Crater."]
As usual, a lot of the humour is extremely dry. More here:
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/18178-Apollo-Astronauts-Joking-Around
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Welcome to the forum Ben, and great work :)
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That site is fantastic. Great work!
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for the encouragement. Kiwi, I've made the Q-ball change and the other changes that you described, and I added the twinkle toes incident to the table of contents. Thanks for the heads up! Actually, I greatly improved the table of contents tonight to include many more small moments, and noting most of the video segments. I had taken notes on items of interest as I scrubbed through the transcript over the years. Most of those notes are now in the table of contents.
I'm going to a local screening of Last Man on the Moon here in Toronto, Canada on Wednesday. Gene Cernan will be in attendance. I'm very excited to say the least.
Ben
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I'm going to a local screening of Last Man on the Moon here in Toronto, Canada on Wednesday. Gene Cernan will be in attendance. I'm very excited to say the least.
Hi, Ben. I'm in Hamilton... where can I find details about the screening of Last Man on the Moon in Toronto? I doubt I'll be able to attend, but if Gene Cernan is going to be there I'd sure like to try.
Great job with the apollo17.org website, by the way!
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Hot docs Toronto.
http://boxoffice.hotdocs.ca/WebSales/pages/info.aspx?evtinfo=36921~fff311b7-cdad-4e14-9ae4-a9905e1b9cb0&
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Hot docs Toronto.
http://boxoffice.hotdocs.ca/WebSales/pages/info.aspx?evtinfo=36921~fff311b7-cdad-4e14-9ae4-a9905e1b9cb0&
Enjoy the film - it's fantastic! I've taken the liberty of letting the film's facebook page know you'll be there :D
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So was it someone on this forum who asked Gene Cernan the Apollo hoax question at the Toronto Hot Docs screening of The Last Man on the Moon? Cernan nailed the answer. I paraphrase, but it was something along the lines of "if you think Apollo was a hoax, you're missing out on one of the greatest stories of human achievement in history."
It was a great honour for me to meet him (https://twitter.com/BenFeist/status/583679626913959937).
Ben
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So was it someone on this forum who asked Gene Cernan the Apollo hoax question at the Toronto Hot Docs screening of The Last Man on the Moon? Cernan nailed the answer. I paraphrase, but it was something along the lines of "if you think Apollo was a hoax, you're missing out on one of the greatest stories of human achievement in history."
It was a great honour for me to meet him (https://twitter.com/BenFeist/status/583679626913959937).
Ben
I have this quote from him on my site:
"The other thing about it is, this conspiracy theory, is [that] the truth needs no defense. I don't have to respond to that. I stepped on the surface of the Moon, and I don't really need to defend that, because I know it happened, I know I did."
Eugene Cernan, Oral History
Great that you met him :) I ambushed him at Sheffield and shook his hand :D
Did you enjoy the film?
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The film was truly spectacular. It was a very personal portrait of Cernan and the filmmaker did a tremendous job wrapping the space race within the context of the time and Cernan's life. You were left with a feeling that you know something about what felt like to be one of the astronauts at that time.
I hope they get a distribution deal. I think this is a film similar to Senna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senna_%28film%29), which swept the awards of several film festivals in 2010. You don't have to be an auto racing enthusiast to enjoy Senna. It stands on its own as a film. Similarly, you don't have to be a space enthusiast to connect with this film. It's extremely well-told. Not to mention how gorgeous it was. Much of the original mission material was re-transferred specifically for the film, and there is some very well place special effects used to depict moments such as Gemini and the LM extraction on Apollo 10.
Ben
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At its heart the film is an old man's reflections on his time on Earth, what he has done with his life and how he affected those around him. When that old man has done some of the most spectacular and amazing things imaginable you have (in the right hands) the ingredients for a great film - which I think it is. I found it very moving in places. I was also impressed by the CGI, which showed some familiar scenes and events in a new way and extremely well :)
Did you manage to explain to him what you'd done?
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I can barely explain it on a good day :) I knew I would have that problem and little time, so I wrote a letter and passed it to him when I said goodbye. I said something along the lines of, "I've been working on a project for a long time on Apollo 17, but I won't take up your time up now. Here's a letter that explains it, I hope you can take a look later on." He said thank you and put the letter in his suit pocket. That's all I could hope for.
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Hi everyone, another update on my #apollo17 project. It's been a long summer, but time to get cracking again. http://benfeist.com/digitizing-apollo-17-part-14-a-fantastic-reception/
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That sounds like a great time you had with him.
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A couple of weeks back, I decided to try to generate some interest and discussion about Apollo by making this and putting it up on the front of the counter in my shop.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/2015-09-15%2011.09.49.jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/lro-a17-small.jpg)
I explain to people about the LRO and KAGUYA and how they have photographed the moon from close up. Some interesting comments have been made, the most common of which has been words to the effect that..."so they really did send men to the moon!?" . Apart from one marginal HB (and he was just a bit creepy TBH) who just thought was all faked, the majority of the comments have been positive.
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onebigmonkey
I know that you know a lot about the ALSJ and the photographs taken by the Apollo astronauts. So tell me, how would I go about locating a particular photo taken at a particular time? I have looked through the ALSJ index, and I can't seem to find anything that tells me how to locate a photo (that might not even exist) given only the approximate time it was taken.
The reason I ask is that last night, I watched a documentary on the History Channel about Apollo 17 (Last Men on the Moon) and near the end, after the launch (where they talk about the NASA technician who filmed the launch by anticipating the six second signal delay to pan the LRV camera upwards following the LM as it launched) there was a brief glimpse of video looking down from the LM at the lunar surface, and I could see the patterns of the LRV tracks and astronaut footprints that are apparent in the LRO photo I posted in my previous post. This would have been shortly after 188:01:30.
Here is a screen grab from my TV of what I am talking about....
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/A17-LO.jpg)
This does appear to be actual A17 footage and not stock footage from another mission because the large crater to the bottom left of the descent stage (7 o'clock) and the tracks to its right, and the two dark patches to the right of the descent stage (4 o'clock) and the tracks beyond it seem to line up quite nicely with the photo I posted.
I was wondering if there might be a better, clearer shot of this.
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https://archive.org/details/Apollo1716mmonboardfilm
From 1Hr approx.. If that's what you're after?
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A lot of the video footage on the ALSJ isn't the best quality - youtube often provides better sources!
On of the best sources for the 16mm video footage is http://archive.org - here, for example, is one of the Apollo 17 16mm pages:
https://archive.org/details/Apollo1716mmonboardfilm
(which Brianpoprobson also found while I was writing this!)
and you're absolutely right - it is Apollo 17.
As far as tracking down images, it's really just familiarity. I've spent more time than I care to think about ploughing through transcripts, mission reports and timelines, photo indexes, and the various repositories of images and film. If it's an image I'm looking for, I tend to head for the Apollo Image Atlas,
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/
as they are all laid out in a grid for quick examination. If they don't have a high quality one, you can usually find better ones at the ALSJ or AFJ, or even higher resolution TIFF images at archive.org or the Gateway to Astronaut Photography of Earth.
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Just to add (and it's been bugging me all evening!), but there is a colour version of that still (or one like it from the sequence) in the Apollo 17 Preliminary Science Report (page 4-27). The online version isn't clear, but the one in my actual paper copy is clear enough.
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To your knowledge, are all the images listed in the database?
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I just spent the last couple of hours reviewing the images from A15 and A16. I must say that the crew of A16 did better photo sessions than the crew of A15. When I heard there were many images that were not perfect, I really had no idea that so many were in that shape. Now when I hear one of the HB's talk about the thousands of pictures that were perfect, I can honesty tell them t go check the records.
There is a couple of images that maybe someone may tell me what they are.
You won't find it in ALSJ, however, the image is on the slideshow A16-124-19916.
I can't figure it out.
EDIT: If all these images are counted in the overall number of images, then Jack White never looked at many of them, because at least 25% of the A15 and A16 images are taken in Lunar orbit. Just in case someone raises this allegation.
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https://archive.org/details/Apollo1716mmonboardfilm
From 1Hr approx.. If that's what you're after?
I was rather hoping for a photograph but I guess the 16mm camera is all the launch would have been taken on; too busy lifting off to take photos.
Still, it is more than what was shown on the doco.
Thanks guys
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To your knowledge, are all the images listed in the database?
The list of which magazines were used are complete, but not every magazine is available, for whatever reason. No doubt they are chock full of aliens, astronauts sat around smoking on set etc etc.
The missing ones tend to relate to orbital science or specific experiments, such as the Hycon images Awe130 was banging on about from Apollo 14, or the 35mm photos taken by Apollo 15 of stellar targets.
Isolated examples of these images do appear in scientific and technical reports, so they were processed, but they haven't been scanned by anyone for the modern age.
Your mystery image from Apollo 16 is listed in the Apollo Image Atlas as 'Gray Scale', so it's likely that that one, and others like it, were taken for calibration purposes to help with analysing other images on the magazine.
I've heard Marcus Allen claim that 32000 images were taken on the moon (and he specifically uses the word 'on'), but this is way over the actual total of all images taken (the Image Atlas cites 25000 lunar images including Metric and Panoramic camera images). Most of the images are taken in lunar orbit, and a substantial number in LEO and cislunar space. The majority of surface images in Apollo 15-17 were taken during LRV traverses.
Another hefty chunk accounts for photographs of samples and or experiments 'in situ' and 'locator shots' to give a context for samples and experiments. Very few Apollo lunar surface images are what would be described as 'tourist' or 'opportunist' shots that average HB expects, mostly because the film budgets were very carefully worked out in advance.
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The list of which magazines were used are complete, but not every magazine is available, for whatever reason. No doubt they are chock full of aliens, astronauts sat around smoking on set etc etc.
The missing ones tend to relate to orbital science or specific experiments, such as the Hycon images Awe130 was banging on about from Apollo 14, or the 35mm photos taken by Apollo 15 of stellar targets.
Isolated examples of these images do appear in scientific and technical reports, so they were processed, but they haven't been scanned by anyone for the modern age.
Your mystery image from Apollo 16 is listed in the Apollo Image Atlas as 'Gray Scale', so it's likely that that one, and others like it, were taken for calibration purposes to help with analysing other images on the magazine.
I've heard Marcus Allen claim that 32000 images were taken on the moon (and he specifically uses the word 'on'), but this is way over the actual total of all images taken (the Image Atlas cites 25000 lunar images including Metric and Panoramic camera images). Most of the images are taken in lunar orbit, and a substantial number in LEO and cislunar space. The majority of surface images in Apollo 15-17 were taken during LRV traverses.
Another hefty chunk accounts for photographs of samples and or experiments 'in situ' and 'locator shots' to give a context for samples and experiments. Very few Apollo lunar surface images are what would be described as 'tourist' or 'opportunist' shots that average HB expects, mostly because the film budgets were very carefully worked out in advance.
So then the roughly 8500(?) images of the 25000 are on the Lunar surface.
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There is a couple of images that maybe someone may tell me what they are. You won't find it in ALSJ, however, the image is on the slideshow A16-124-19916. I can't figure it out.
The Lunar & Planetary Institute's Apollo Image Atlas says:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS16-124-19916
Apollo Image Atlas
AS16-124-19916
Image Collection: 70mm Hasselblad
Mission: 16
Magazine: 124
Magazine Letter: SS
Description: GRAY SCALE
Film Type: 2485
Film Width: 70 mm
Film Color: black & white
It's a gray-scale which is used for calibrating film, prints, developing-chemicals or equipment.
The view of the entire film
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/catalog/70mm/magazine/?124
shows it has been photographed at the end of the film using 13 different exposure settings from over-exposure to under-exposure.
So then the roughly 8500(?) images of the 25000 are on the Lunar surface.
From a spreadsheet I made of all Apollo 7 to 17 photos years ago (dunno why the total of 18,629 doesn't agree):--
Images Surface Orbital Other
18667 6506 9135 2988
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From a spreadsheet I made of all Apollo 7 to 17 photos years ago (dunno why the total of 18,629 doesn't agree):--
Images Surface Orbital Other
18667 6506 9135 2988
That was a lot of work, but thanks.
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A couple of weeks back, I decided to try to generate some interest and discussion about Apollo by making this and putting it up on the front of the counter in my shop.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/2015-09-15%2011.09.49.jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/lro-a17-small.jpg)
I explain to people about the LRO and KAGUYA and how they have photographed the moon from close up. Some interesting comments have been made, the most common of which has been words to the effect that..."so they really did send men to the moon!?" . Apart from one marginal HB (and he was just a bit creepy TBH) who just thought was all faked, the majority of the comments have been positive.
update
Last week, the LRO Apollo 17 Taurus-Littrow poster above lured in my first genuine Apollo fan. His name is Tony, an Englishman, about my age, who saw Neil Armstrong's first steps 11 live (we didn't in NZ). He came in with his two sons about 12 and 14, and we had quite a discussion about Apollo and the space programme in general. His enthusiasm has obviously rubbed off on his boys as it was apparent that they knew a lot about Apollo and were able to participate fully in the discussion. Looking at and listening to those two boys, I realised that are around the same age that Tony and I were when it was all happening at Tranquillity Base, and it made me wonder what the world will be like when they get to my age. Hopefully, Tony has set his boys on the path of understanding that Apollo was real.
I wouldn't normally bother to post all this, except that yesterday, Tony came back and brought in a book for me to look at. Its called "Full Moon" by photographer and artist Michael Light. I found it quite stunning. It has all the usual Apollo photographs such as the moonscapes and Earth from the moon and close up of the LM and the LRV etc, but it was these photos the really caught my eye...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/light1.jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/light2.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/light3.jpg) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/light4.jpg)
For mine, it is photos like these that truly speak to the reality of what these men did, and more so than all the other the amazing photographs of where they went. This makes it all the more sad that there are people out there who, for their own selfish motives and deluded self-aggrandisement, deny the reality of the achievements of these great men.
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Great story!
I love that picture of Cernan...he looks like he has just come up from a shift downt'pit! It's probably my second favourite Apollo picture after this one:
(http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-37-5528enh-sm.jpg)
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Great story!
I love that picture of Cernan...he looks like he has just come up from a shift downt'pit! It's probably my second favourite Apollo picture after this one:
They were covered with all that phony moon dust ::) A17 was in my opinion the most interesting of the missions, perhaps because of Schmidt
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I love that picture of Cernan...he looks like he has just come up from a shift downt'pit!
I agree. Seeing his lunar-dust-covered face (instead of an anonymous gold mirror) makes it all seem that more real. And hard work, too.
Lunar dust particles are extremely small, jagged and clingy, and that reminds me of asbestos. Have there been any reports of lung problems among the 12 astronauts who went to the surface and breathed that stuff?
Too bad we don't have any films or videos of astronauts moving around inside an LM in lunar gravity. The only visible faces I see bouncing around in 1/6 g are on reduced-gravity parabolic airplane flights, e.g., in that fantastic Mythbusters moon-hoax-busting episode. (I'm not counting brief low-resolution glimpses of Jack Schmitt as he lifts his scratched-up visor.)
But seeing real 1/6 g does spoil the illusion in TV shows and movies set on the moon. Occasionally they'll fake it with slow motion in outdoor scenes, but they don't even try to fake it in indoor scenes. E.g., Space: 1999, Moon, Apollo 18 and 2001: A Space Odyssey. The difficulty of doing that even today ought to tell the hoaxers something...
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Full Moon is a beautiful book and you can get it 2nd hand pretty cheaply - make sure you get the full sized version.
The best copy I've seen is one that had been taken around astronaut events and had Apollo signatures on apprpriate pages.
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onebigmonkey
I know that you know a lot about the ALSJ and the photographs taken by the Apollo astronauts. So tell me, how would I go about locating a particular photo taken at a particular time? I have looked through the ALSJ index, and I can't seem to find anything that tells me how to locate a photo (that might not even exist) given only the approximate time it was taken.
The reason I ask is that last night, I watched a documentary on the History Channel about Apollo 17 (Last Men on the Moon) and near the end, after the launch (where they talk about the NASA technician who filmed the launch by anticipating the six second signal delay to pan the LRV camera upwards following the LM as it launched) there was a brief glimpse of video looking down from the LM at the lunar surface, and I could see the patterns of the LRV tracks and astronaut footprints that are apparent in the LRO photo I posted in my previous post. This would have been shortly after 188:01:30.
Here is a screen grab from my TV of what I am talking about....
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/A17-LO.jpg)
This does appear to be actual A17 footage and not stock footage from another mission because the large crater to the bottom left of the descent stage (7 o'clock) and the tracks to its right, and the two dark patches to the right of the descent stage (4 o'clock) and the tracks beyond it seem to line up quite nicely with the photo I posted.
I was wondering if there might be a better, clearer shot of this.
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I wasn't getting my forum notification emails!
The footage you're looking for is on apollo17.org at 188:02:00 or so. The youtube video is the best available scan of the 16mm onboard film.
Here's a link right to that moment: http://apollo17.org/?t=188:01:55
Ben
apollo17.org