Author Topic: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)  (Read 7653 times)

Online Peter B

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Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« on: August 17, 2015, 08:43:33 AM »
I finally got around to watching the first four episodes of season 1 of GoT over the last few nights.

After that I just opened up the show's Wikipedia page and read the season synopses and decided I couldn't be bothered watching all those episodes.

Now don't get me wrong - I like my SF and Fantasy (I'm a founding member of an SF&F writing group here in Canberra). But there was something about GoT that seemed a little...out of balance, despite the superb production values, skillful characterisation and the impressive cast.

One of the things that struck me was the frenetic, chaotic pace of events. By season five most of the characters from season one seem to be dead, yet there never seemed to be any sort of pause, either from exhaustion or from a balance of power.

The obvious historical comparison for Martin's series is the English Wars of the Roses, which lasted on-and-off for about 30 years. But within that time the actual periods of violence were short - the longest continuous period of warfare in the Wars of the Roses lasted less than two months, after which a new balance was struck and the surviving nobility maneuvered for advantage; most campaigns in the wars were settled by a single battle.

Likewise, the collapse of Alexander the Great's empire after his death into the eventual three successor kingdoms took about 45 years, but as with the Wars of the Roses, the Wars of the Successors involved lengthy periods of diplomatic maneuvering and generally short periods of fighting.

By comparison, the events in the show's five seasons seem to have occurred over a much shorter time, and don't seem to show any sign of slowing down. Obviously when you're writing fantasy you can make the world and people do what you want, but this just doesn't ring true.

What do you think? Have you watched the show? Read the books?
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 03:33:37 PM »
Hi there!

I've both watched the show and read the books and can say that I totally understand where you're coming from. One largely unavoidable failing I've noted in the show is how they have to condense everything, both in terms of characters as well as time. In my opinion, they do an admirable job of juggling concurrent events and consolidating disparate character arcs, but to a fan of the books like myself, that still gives one the impression of some rather frantic pacing. As you've already pored over the wiki info, I'm going to provide an example from a later season of the show that illustrates precisely what I'm talking about, as well as highlighting a "character consolidation" that fell well short of the mark in terms of the tragedy presented in Martin's books.

Here there be Spoilers!


In the books, Rob Stark's war with the Lannisters is far more drawn out, consisting of several clashes between the men of the North and the Lannister's field commander Gregor Clegane. Even though the reader isn't privy to every single battle, the impression is nonetheless conveyed that Rob's forces, once past the Trident, are very much an occupying force in the Riverlands with skirmishes both large and small happening with a great deal of frequency as Clegane and other loyalist to the (Baratheon/Lannister) throne seek to draw the Starks out of the relative safety afforded them in the lands held by their allies, the Tullys.

Far earlier in this series of battles, Rob Stark suffers a minor wound(during the capture of Jaime Lannister, as I recall) and is recuperating at the holdfast of some lesser lord. While there, he receives word of Theon Greyjoy's betrayal and the "deaths" of his younger brothers, Brann and Rickon, at Theon's hands. In his grief, Rob finds comfort in the arms of this lesser Lord's daughter, resulting in her pregnancy. Rob, in service to what he feels is the honorable thing to do in the circumstances, marries this young woman in spite of having already promised to marry one of Walder Frey's daughters as a part of his "payment" for passing his forces over the Trident via use of Frey's fortified "toll bridge," the Twins.

In contrast, the show has Rob simply toss aside his word to Frey(and some would say his honor), having fallen in love with the Volantene nurse, Talisa. Not only did this alteration in the plot rob us(pardon the pun) of his recuperation period and the protracted campaign of battles being waged in his absence, it also, in my opinion, sapped any vestige of honor from his actions. While I'm sure that some would argue that there is nothing more honorable than following the dictates of one's heart, I don't feel that this is the message that Martin sought to convey via Rob's character arc. It's supposed to be tragic. He, like his father, marries not for love, but for duty and honor. He, like his father, has to weigh his course of action and balance as best he can duty against honor. And he, like his father, pays the ultimate price for attempting to strike a balance between the two.

As far as the hurried pacing goes, the events recounted above also serve as a workable example of how the show, almost of necessity, has to take a great number of liberties with timing and pacing. By jumping from setting to setting in an attempt to keep their viewers abreast of developments far and wide, they never got to focus on the so-called "War of the Five Kings" sufficiently. We hear about the lawless chaos into which the Riverlands have descended largely second-hand. We only see the merest fraction of it through Arya's and Gendry's brushes with the "Brotherhood without Banners," Brienne's and Jaime's trek to King's Landing, and Brienne's subsequent quest for the remaining Stark children. We aren't witness to the atrocities all sides are committing. We aren't made aware of the fact that, without a king to follow, a great many of the stranded forces from the north turn to pillaging across the Riverlands, and that the resultant lawlessness has driven a great many people to the roads south towards King's Landing, seeking shelter from the continued violence and chaos rampant courtesy of three different sources - The Mountain, the First Men, and the Brotherhood.

In short, I believe that HBO took on a monumental task in filming what a great many people had assessed as impossible to adequately portray on film, and while they do an admirable job, there are going to be times that they fall short of the mark. Also, I highly recommend the books. The wikis can't do them justice. In my opinion, what Tolkien did for fantasy through language, Martin has built upon through sociology, history, and politics.
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Offline Tedward

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 03:40:15 PM »
Tried to read the book, I really did. Memory says people and plots suddenly appearing, plot all over the place, I don't know. Thank heavens for Mr P Hamilton.

Sorry.

 :)

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 04:14:29 PM »
I tried to get into GoT when I first came out. I watched the first few episodes of Season 1 but it just couldn't hold my interest, and I haven't watched any of it since then.

I guess fantasy fiction is not my thing although I confess to enjoying the works of Michael Moorcock.
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Offline Northern Lurker

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2015, 04:56:57 PM »
I am a fan of SF&F too and I have tried to read GoT. Several times... I can't keep track of all the people, places and plots. My friend suggested making notes but I do that only when studying.

Lurky

Online Peter B

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 08:01:22 PM »
Hi there!

I've both watched the show and read the books and can say that I totally understand where you're coming from. One largely unavoidable failing I've noted in the show is how they have to condense everything, both in terms of characters as well as time. In my opinion, they do an admirable job of juggling concurrent events and consolidating disparate character arcs, but to a fan of the books like myself, that still gives one the impression of some rather frantic pacing. As you've already pored over the wiki info, I'm going to provide an example from a later season of the show that illustrates precisely what I'm talking about, as well as highlighting a "character consolidation" that fell well short of the mark in terms of the tragedy presented in Martin's books.

Good point. Yes, I understand it's next to impossible to age characters believably on a TV series. Do the books give an indication of the time period over which events occur?
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2015, 08:11:50 PM »
Good point. Yes, I understand it's next to impossible to age characters believably on a TV series. Do the books give an indication of the time period over which events occur?

Working entirely off of memory here, but I think maybe Jon Snow's character provides the best point of reference. I believe he was only around 13 when he left for the wall, 16-17 when he ranged north with Qhorin Halfhand, and 19-20 by the events depicted at the close of season 5.

I'm going to double check all of this across a couple of different wikis and let you know what I find out.

If you'd like to do some checking of your own, "A Wiki of Ice and Fire" might yield better results, as I'm reasonably sure that anything that references "A Game of Thrones" is going to be skewed in the direction of how events are depicted in the show.
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Online Peter B

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 08:12:37 PM »
I am a fan of SF&F too and I have tried to read GoT. Several times... I can't keep track of all the people, places and plots. My friend suggested making notes but I do that only when studying.

Lurky

Notes!? LOL.

A far better example of this sort of story telling IMO is Harry Turtledove's four book Videssos Cycle. Each book is about half the length of a Martin door-stopper. There are about 30-40 major characters, many of whom aren't present across the entire series. There are barely half a dozen viewpoint characters. There are two major story-lines which emerge, one almost immediately and the other over the course of the first book, and they're both resolved by the end of the series. And across the Cycle there are a series of crises which arise and are resolved, some of them cleverly and others quite tragically.

Like Martin, Turtledove uses a historical society and timeline to base his books on, but it's a little more exotic than High Medieval Western Europe. (As it's a society and timeline I know well, the setting wasn't quite as exotic for me as it might be for other readers, but that's probably just me.) One other thing Turtledove does well in the series is to incorporate a system of magic that is overt but well-controlled; that is, there's a lot of magic in that world, and its use drives some plot lines, but it never gets out of hand.
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 08:32:09 PM »
Wow, according to this site, I'm way off. The events depicted thus far in the books take place over the course of three years.

One other thing Turtledove does well in the series is to incorporate a system of magic that is overt but well-controlled; that is, there's a lot of magic in that world, and its use drives some plot lines, but it never gets out of hand.

Speaking of deftly handling magic, have you ever checked out Glenn Cook's(don't let the characteristically terrible cover art put you off) The Black Company? Cook artfully sidesteps the issue of having to explain magic by having his POV narrator be someone with zero experience with(or interest in) it. All he ever does is relate things he sees and conversations he's had with various magic users. In Cook's setting, magic is treated as something that a great many people have some command of, but truly powerful wielders are very rare.
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Online Peter B

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 08:54:14 PM »
Wow, according to this site, I'm way off. The events depicted thus far in the books take place over the course of three years.

One other thing Turtledove does well in the series is to incorporate a system of magic that is overt but well-controlled; that is, there's a lot of magic in that world, and its use drives some plot lines, but it never gets out of hand.

Speaking of deftly handling magic, have you ever checked out Glenn Cook's(don't let the characteristically terrible cover art put you off) The Black Company? Cook artfully sidesteps the issue of having to explain magic by having his POV narrator be someone with zero experience with(or interest in) it. All he ever does is relate things he sees and conversations he's had with various magic users. In Cook's setting, magic is treated as something that a great many people have some command of, but truly powerful wielders are very rare.

Yes, I've read the entire Black Company series, and they're also among my favourites. I think the original trilogy were the best books. The Books of the Glittering Stone soon started to drag into tedious endlessness, and then got wrapped up suspiciously quickly in the last book.

I thought his characterisation was excellent - the relationships between Goblin and One-Eye, and between them and Croaker is a particular example. I also liked that it was a truly original setting, rather than being based on some historical society and timeline. And, like Martin's books, there was a lot of amoral/dubious morality decision-making happening.
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 09:17:21 PM »
Oh, I loooooved the moral ambiguity of it all.
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Offline Chief

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2015, 10:41:06 PM »
I've read the entire series to date and watched the show. I sort of view the show as a different take on the book. One thing is clear, don't become attached to any character because none of them seem to last very long. I'm too involved in the story now not to finish it but I will do so purely to complete it unless something really intriguing comes up.

The basic gist of the whole story is stupidity will kill you. Most of the characters who have died have done so due to their own stupidity. That's what has been bugging me. If they actually took some time to think about the situation they would have avoided death. 

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Game of Thrones - your thoughts (with spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2015, 04:41:01 AM »
My take on the TV series is: if you didn't see them die, don't assume they are dead!

I listened to the whole unabridged audiobook series cycling to work, and I think what stands out is that the TV series does start to deviate more the further in it gets - I hope it doesn't become more of a "inspired by the characters in..." thing.