Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 426348 times)

Offline raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1515 on: November 02, 2020, 04:56:07 PM »
"Don't Tread on Me, Except With Trump Brand Boots©", eh? Not so pithy, admittedly. How about, "From my cold, dead hands, except for with your small, little ones"? Snarky jokes aside , the amount of cult of personality Trump has acquired rather alarming. Like, threatening to leave the country if he doesn't win. To the rest of us, "Great!" but to the cult members, the idea of their Messiah leaving must have felt crushing and a call to do anything to keep him in power.

To be fair, a lot of Clinton supporters said the same thing in the first few months after the 2016 election.
Yes, but I'm talking about Trump himself threatening to leave if he doesn't win. Sorry I wasn't clear on that.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/10/trump-may-leave-country-if-he-loses-prison-criminal-prosecution.html

Offline Ranb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1516 on: November 02, 2020, 05:12:03 PM »
Yes, but I'm talking about Trump himself threatening to leave if he doesn't win. Sorry I wasn't clear on that.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/10/trump-may-leave-country-if-he-loses-prison-criminal-prosecution.html
It would be the smartest thing he has done in a while provided he goes to a country that will not extradite him at the request of the United States.  :)

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1517 on: November 02, 2020, 05:28:23 PM »
As many states have scrambled to provide new safe voting options, the notion of what constitutes a lawfully-cast vote will almost certainly be challenged in a way that selectively disenfranchises unwanted groups of voters.  Let's be clear:  there will be irregularities vote counting.  It's an inevitable consequence of trying new polling methods for the first time.  And nearly all of them will be innocent and correctible.

As a Brit, I have to say I stare in slack-jawed amazement at the system in the US that allows politicians and courts to mess around with how votes are collected and counted during an election. Challenging the outcome is one thing, but actively seeking to count or discount votes that have been cast, changing how many polling stations are set up in any given county, and arguing over when the final result is actually in and valid, all while votes are being cast, is just incredible to me.

When I vote in an election, I know what day to go to the nearest polling station, and I know we have so many in the area that if I go to my local one at any given time of day the chances are I will have to stand in line for maybe ten minutes if at all. We have had so many elections in the last few years for one thing or another over here, and I haven't had to stand in line once. No-one, not politicians, not courts, gets to challenge how an election is conducted during it. Calls for reform may happen after unpopular outcomes (as they often do), but never in my lifetime have we had anyone try to change how an election is carried out and how votes are considered valid while one is actually taking place. That's not to say the system is perfect, far from it. But at least it is stable and I have no reason to be concerned that my vote will not be counted if I either mail it in by the appropriate deadline or go to a polling station on election day.

It's mindbogglingly shocking, isn't it? Especially from a nation that shouts about democracy at every opportunity. It's like watching some banana republic at work.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1518 on: November 02, 2020, 08:25:59 PM »
Not anymore.  Since Trump has imposed his anti-gun agenda, the NRA in their zeal to support him have abandoned the position that Americans should be able to own any kind of firearm they wish.  They have stepped back to only support those kinds that Trump approves of.

That's certainly not the move I would have predicted.  The NRA has rarely deferred to any single politician.  The Trump personality cult must indeed be powerful.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1519 on: November 02, 2020, 08:36:21 PM »
It's mindbogglingly shocking, isn't it? Especially from a nation that shouts about democracy at every opportunity. It's like watching some banana republic at work.

What can I say?  I have no defense for the deplorable condition of American electoral policy and practice.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1520 on: November 03, 2020, 02:52:36 AM »
It's mindbogglingly shocking, isn't it? Especially from a nation that shouts about democracy at every opportunity. It's like watching some banana republic at work.

What can I say?  I have no defense for the deplorable condition of American electoral policy and practice.

There s no defense for it. The sooner America realises that the GOP is little more than a death cult that will do and say ANYTHING to cling to power the sooner it can start to repair.
Good luck today and for the next month or two. It's going to be very, very messy.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1521 on: November 03, 2020, 04:51:23 AM »
Im waiting for the first shooting at a polling booth by some Trump-supporting knuckle-dragger.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1522 on: November 03, 2020, 07:42:27 AM »
Im waiting for the first shooting at a polling booth by some Trump-supporting knuckle-dragger.

I'm expecting there to be some major voter intimidation happening. I wouldn't be surprised to see militia groups show up at polling stations with guns to "monitor for cheating". We'll see if the police will do anything to stop it.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1523 on: November 03, 2020, 10:32:23 AM »
I know people who did.  I know a lot more people who can't afford to this time around, either.
Why would someone do that instead of sticking around to change things?  I can understand the desire to seek refuge in another country for security or economic reasons, but to protest the election of a politician?

Um . . . because in their case, they fear for their security under the Trump administration, and rightly so?  I have many LGBTQ friends.  I have friends who are immigrants--brought here as children, but we see how much that matters to this administration.  I myself have serious health problems; one of my friends who moved abroad is a schizophrenic, and good luck getting insurance as a schizophrenic if the Republicans' goals succeed.
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Offline Jeff Raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1524 on: November 03, 2020, 10:41:16 AM »
Im waiting for the first shooting at a polling booth by some Trump-supporting knuckle-dragger.

I'm expecting there to be some major voter intimidation happening. I wouldn't be surprised to see militia groups show up at polling stations with guns to "monitor for cheating". We'll see if the police will do anything to stop it.

If it hasn't already happened, I would expect it in certain parts of Pennsylvania.  It's one of the top 5 most at-risk states, according to at least 1 source:  https://acleddata.com/acleddatanew/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/ACLED_MilitiaWatch_StandingByMilitiaGroups_2020_Web.pdf

I would be shocked, albeit very pleasantly, if at the end of the day there are no shootings and no major reports of voter intimidation.

On a good note, I just voted. Took 8 minutes in total, with social distancing being enforced. Admittedly I vote in a very small city park building, but still, I was one of only 2 people on line.

Offline Jeff Raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1525 on: November 03, 2020, 10:50:58 AM »
As a Brit, I have to say I stare in slack-jawed amazement at the system in the US that allows politicians and courts to mess around with how votes are collected and counted during an election. Challenging the outcome is one thing, but actively seeking to count or discount votes that have been cast, changing how many polling stations are set up in any given county, and arguing over when the final result is actually in and valid, all while votes are being cast, is just incredible to me.

You're not alone. It's truly amazing that there aren't set deadlines for these things, subject, of course, to reasonable situational issues, such as we are currently facing. As you said, once the process of voting has started, there's little valid argument for challenging the process. It's somewhat like an ex post facto law approach. I voted on date X, following all laws and regulations at that time, but on date X + 30 days, someone said that my vote is no longer legal, and won't be counted. Um, no. And that doesn't even get into the issues Jay and others raised about polling and drop-off locations, changes to ID requirements, etc.

One thing I haven't seen people address in the whole, "mail-in voting is going to be riddled with fraud" argument is that it's the responsibility of the current administration to ensure that the voting process is valid, to protect it from interference and fraud. Therefore, if there is fraud, it will literally be due to a failure of the administration that is worried it will happen; they won't have done their jobs. 

Offline Jeff Raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1526 on: November 03, 2020, 10:52:38 AM »
It's mindbogglingly shocking, isn't it? Especially from a nation that shouts about democracy at every opportunity. It's like watching some banana republic at work.

What can I say?  I have no defense for the deplorable condition of American electoral policy and practice.

Uh-oh, you used a buzz-word.  *tsks*   ;)


Offline molesworth

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1528 on: November 03, 2020, 11:25:48 AM »
As a Brit, I have to say I stare in slack-jawed amazement at the system in the US that allows politicians and courts to mess around with how votes are collected and counted during an election.
...
I'll echo Jason's thoughts and add that it's also surprising that there are no national regulations on voting procedures, dates, times, using postal ballots or voter registration.  It seems to be different from state to state (possibly even for counties?) with some very strange decisions being made on these.  Surely these should have been made consistent across the country years ago.
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Offline molesworth

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1529 on: November 03, 2020, 11:32:27 AM »
I'm expecting there to be some major voter intimidation happening. I wouldn't be surprised to see militia groups show up at polling stations with guns to "monitor for cheating". We'll see if the police will do anything to stop it.

Trump's army of poll watchers is turning out to be more of a platoon.  It looks like Trump and Don Jr's exhortations for the faithful to man the barricades has gone down like a lead Trump-boat  :D
Days spent at sea are not deducted from one's allotted span - Phoenician proverb