ApolloHoax.net
Apollo Discussions => The Hoax Theory => Topic started by: Chief on January 28, 2015, 02:22:45 AM
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Hello all,
Recent member, first time poster. I have had the misfortune to stumble across the Youtube channel of a young fellow by the name of Jarrah White. I did some Google searches a few weeks ago and found your website although this is the first opportunity to post.
How much does anybody know about this person? He claims to be undertaking an BSc in astrophysics but I can't believe that anyone who has finished the first year would continue to believe his own nonsense. There are only three or four universities in Sydney who offer a astrophysics major as far as I can find and I wonder which one he claims to frequent.
I'm probably teaching how to suck eggs, but has anyone offered to debate with him in a public forum?
Apologies for a lacklustre post but I am still in shock.
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Oh yes. He has been debated on IMDB - search for Bart Sibrels "A Funny thing happened on the way to the moon" and look in the forum section. JayUtah took him on. Just remember, most of Jarrah's comments has been deleted, probably because he did not want a public record of his nonsense.
He's well known - look for Astrobrant2's and others youtubechannels where his nonsense has been dissected (dismantled? dismembered!). I'll find a few links for you when I get power back. I'm on battery for the time being - utilities work.
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Look at these youtube accounts:
https://www.youtube.com/user/philwebb59
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChWaIsDpUyQZOiItYO077-w (member here)
https://www.youtube.com/user/Astrobrant2 (also a user here)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpWiVg5BVOdiHO_0x3MgS8w (also a user here)
https://www.youtube.com/user/Rob260259/videos
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His videos are presented with a tone of confidence and competence, but when questioned he is ignorant and foul mouthed. He eschews public discussion of his ideas and has retreated to his own little YouTube world, in which he is the master over a handful of sycophants.
It is indeed difficult to reconcile his past writings with the pursuit of a degree in physics. I remain skeptical that his years of work and deep commitment to conspiracy can be undone by education.
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It is indeed difficult to reconcile his past writings with the pursuit of a degree in physics.
It's also difficult to reconcile his blatant mathematical incompetence with the pursuit of a degree in physics (or any science subject)
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It's also difficult to reconcile his blatant mathematical incompetence with the pursuit of a degree in physics (or any science subject)
Indeed his first downfall at IMDb was a fairly straightforward application of calculus. Or rather, his repeated and continuing failure to understand why the technique is necessary. His second downfall was a retreat to his previous foul-mouthed posting style, which prompted a moderator response. Apparently he tried to spin the moderator's actions as censorship, giving him a justification to resign from the debate -- a debate he himself demanded, by the way. It's no surprise to me that he has tried to remove evidence of his public performance. It's widely believed here that Jarrah reads this forum but is afraid to post in it.
But to return to the point -- no, I find it utterly incredible that a college degree program in physics would accept him, given his ongoing incompetence.
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He's basically my demonstration of "you have to know more science than I do to disprove a Moon landing." I wouldn't be able to do the calculus, either, but at least I understand that it's necessary.
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I wouldn't be able to do the calculus, either, but at least I understand that it's necessary.
But more importantly, you don't have the hubris to try dumbing down the problem and oversimplifying the underlying behavior so that it did fit your understanding, then pretending to the world that by that means you've overturned a well-established point of science and history, then refusing to be quizzed on it by qualified experts.
There are many more things in heaven and Earth than any one of us can dream about. Not knowing calculus is no different than not knowing how to farm, or not knowing what the heck F. Scott Fitzgerald was talking about. I sit through these workshops at Sundance Film Festival (happening this week) kind of wishing I'd taken more film classes. But then again I don't stand up in the middle of them and shake my fist at these eminent practitioners and accuse them of all manner of disingenuity. Brad Pitt still looks like he could kick my butt.
The sheer arrogance in the combination of behaviors some people exhibit is what makes us weep for the species. The (1) ignorance, (2) the loud pleas for attention, and (3) the evasion of accountability are unproductive, indicative of irrelevance, and very off-putting.
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Brad Pitt still looks like he could kick my butt.
Many actors are actually accomplished martial artists. Ed O'Neil (Al Bundy) is a black belt in brazillian jiujitsu - and those belts aren't handed out without a certain skill. Also, Milla Jovovic and the late Michael Clarke Duncan has practised BJJ.
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I've had plenty of training -- in stage combat, but I think my best bet is a hasty retreat. I'm acclimated to Park City's altitude (ca. 7,000 ft.) and he is not. ;D
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Best weapon in h2h combat is a mile. Between your attacker and you.
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Thanks for the links Allan, I will take a look at them. Obviously I don't need convincing but I would like to see logical rebuttals and extend my knowledge.
I am, for want of a better term, anti-conspiracy and I have debated/argued with many 'open minded' individuals who never cease to astound me with their intellect. Unfortunately my dear brother being one of them.
I never enter into the big bad government debate, I simply indicate that, although my belief is that the powers that be are not conducting any sort of campaign of conspiracy, I have no evidence or knowledge either way so I don't make comment on that. However, I defend on the science and technical side, albeit in layman's terms, and have won some over to reason.
The worst kind of conspiracy theorist sees conspiracy in everything. I was told once that it is like opening a flood gate to a higher understanding and once you see the patterns they cant be 'unseen'. You can't un-break your virginity, was the term. They can tell that every major violent event is a false flag orchestrated to support some sort of agenda. That is of course their whole problem but they can't see it.
Anyhow there is a great deal of information on this forum which I will absorb over time, I am not usually a frequent poster but I will browse from time to time and give my input if I can.
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Feel free to ask any question you might think of. There are people here who have vast expertise, and are willing to share.
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It's widely believed here that Jarrah reads this forum but is afraid to post in it.
Actually, I would find it just astonishing if he didn't frequently visit this forum. Any kind of internet search including the terms Apollo and Hoax is going to land you here eventually. He's bound to check here regularly just in case one of the NASA shills let something slip!
Feel free to ask any question you might think of. There are people here who have vast expertise, and are willing to share.
And among those here who willing to share are REAL scientists, REAL mathematicians, REAL aerospace engineers, REAL pilots, and people who actually work on various aspects of the current space program e.g. some that work for payload contractors.
Anyhow there is a great deal of information on this forum which I will absorb over time, I am not usually a frequent poster but I will browse from time to time and give my input if I can.
Another place you might like to look at is www.clavius.org - This is Jay's baby (one that I note he was too modest to point out.)
It is full of useful, well organised information about the Reality of Apollo, and a great site to find material to debunk hoaxtards.
Incidentally, if while reading this forum, you happen to stumble upon references to "The Blunder" (from down under), or "He Who Shall Not Be named", they are referring to Mr White!
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I had a look a clavius this morning after seeing the link on the home page, nothing in-depth (That is my perusal) but very interesting and valuable.
I am an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, Chief Engineer (hence the moniker) for a large Asian airline's training facility.
Unfortunately over the years I have forgotten a lot of the technical knowledge I once had.
I did two years of calculus, hmna years ago, and do you think I could do a simple Integration now! well simple maybe - if I was reminded how to do it, this morning I had to remember how to create an equation from certain variables and solve for one of them. It took me about half an hour.
It is all management now I'm afraid. That's why I like to try and keep my head in lots of information. This forum is a wealth of knowledge of which I could well be in need of.
I also had a look at some of Astrobrant's responses to JW. Very good indeed. On one of the LRO videos, where he was just showing a negative of the infra red image, it sort of leads me to the conclusion that the young man may not believe what he is presenting and is being devious in the extreme.
I'll keep on with the quest.
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I am an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, Chief Engineer (hence the moniker) for a large Asian airline's training facility.
I am a former Avionics Engineer (ex-Air Force) I have worked at both ends of the job; Flight Line to Depot Level and everything between on C130Ks, P3K Orions, A4K Skyhawks, BAC Strikemasters, plus Huey, Wasp and Sioux choppers, as well as ground installations like TACAN, VOR-DME, Control Tower Communication systems, Surveillance Radar and PAR.
Unfortunately over the years I have forgotten a lot of the technical knowledge I once had.
I know the feeling well, but I find that sometimes someone will mention something, and whole bunches of stiff I thought I had forgotten comes flooding back.
A sign of age perhaps?
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Hello all,
Recent member, first time poster. I have had the misfortune to stumble across the Youtube channel of a young fellow by the name of Jarrah White. I did some Google searches a few weeks ago and found your website although this is the first opportunity to post.
How much does anybody know about this person? He claims to be undertaking an BSc in astrophysics but I can't believe that anyone who has finished the first year would continue to believe his own nonsense. There are only three or four universities in Sydney who offer a astrophysics major as far as I can find and I wonder which one he claims to frequent.
I'm probably teaching how to suck eggs, but has anyone offered to debate with him in a public forum?
Apologies for a lacklustre post but I am still in shock.
To quote Maxwell Smart,
Sorry about that, Chief.
On behalf of all Australians who post on this forum, I'd like to apologise for the ignorance and arrogance spread by Jarrah. Trust me, just because we're Aussies doesn't mean we believe a word he says...
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To quote Maxwell Smart,
Sorry about that, Chief.
On behalf of all Australians who post on this forum, I'd like to apologise for the ignorance and arrogance spread by Jarrah. Trust me, just because we're Aussies doesn't mean we believe a word he says...
I think, that's similar to people in other countries and their conspirasheeps (or better to say conspiracy advocates). Here in Germany we have Gerhard Wisnewski, a former journalist and filmmaker (not Sibrel-style, but the same intention). Be sure, Wisnewski isn't important enough here ;D
And the Netherlands... well... they have Adrian. I know several Dutch people, including my prospective daughter-in-law. She lives in Tilburg, she has the feeling to know him because she knows both adresses from the domain registry information. Steph did a small research in Tilburg with the result: Nobody there gives a damn about Adrian. ;D
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Unfortunately over the years I have forgotten a lot of the technical knowledge I once had.
I know what you mean. I graduated with a civil engineering degree and then choose a career in construction. Being on the construction side rather than the design side, I forgot much of what I learned. I couldn't design a simple beam for you right now without digging out my old text books and relearning it. That's one of the reason I've enjoyed so much learning about the mathematical side of Apollo, such as the orbital mechanics, because it's given the chance to use my engineering fundamentals, which likely would have also been lost had I not taken up that interest.
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Jarrah White claims to have been a space enthusiast and fan of space exploration, (including Apollo), when he was a child. Actually, I believe him. Somewhere along the line he came across the writings of Ralph Rene and Bill Kaysing. Perhaps he had not yet reached an age where he realized that people can be very persuasive while talking utter nonsense. Their claims apparently made sense to him because at that time, Jarrah just didn't know or understand the principles well enough to spot their errors. A bias against Apollo was established.
Now add to that certain personality traits which would tend to immerse someone in a conspiracy theory. In my opinion, he is very self-centered and intent on distinguishing himself somehow. He has also apparently acquired the notion that he can talk his way around anything, and that he has a superior intellect. I imagine him thinking, "I have to be right because I'm,... well,... me!"
He wants to become an astronaut. He envisions himself being among the first to go to Mars. So it looks to me like a case of sour grapes. Through his 20's, he probably doubted that he could get the necessary credentials to become an astronaut, so he jealously defamed NASA and real astronauts. Nevertheless, at the age of 30 or 31, he decided to start his college education. Yes, now he actually believes he can get the necessary credentials and still be young enough to become an astronaut. Oh, and he plans to do this without any involvement with NASA.
Along the same lines, and another indication of his tendency to think in very unrealistic terms, he posted some 20 videos soliciting 300 million dollars to go on a (non-landing) trip to the moon and back. It was a promotion offered by the Russians. He actually believes he can raise that kind of money by e-begging. When I pointed out to him that he had long asserted that radiation would kill any astronaut on a lunar mission, he stated that he would be glad to give his life for the truth. Another example of his "thinking" is how he demonstrated his sincerity by claiming he donated $50 to his own fund-raiser. He considers that putting his money where his mouth is.
He has frequently demonstrated an inability to think logically, often drawing irrational conclusions from premises. YouTube user KalelJordanKent, aka Proppagannis, parodied it this way, "2 plus 3 times a cow born on Thursday in a leap year = fruit pies." (I've dubbed that the "Kalel Axiom".) On more than one occasion White has used evidence from one thing he claims is fake in order to disprove something else he claims is fake. Two examples: first, although he believes Apollo was faked, he compared slight, (and very explainable), differences in the lunar terrain in the Apollo 17 ascent film to images from LRO. He concluded that LRO was fake because of those differences. Second, he cites the differences in Chang'e 3 and Apollo lunar soil chemistry analysis as proof that Apollo was faked. But wait...he claims Chang'e 3 was faked, too! (I've suggested calling this a "Jarrahdox.")
In my opinion, these examples of his reasoning ability, along with what I believe to be a weakness in math aptitude, would make it difficult if not impossible for him to get a degree in astrophysics. That shouldn't hinder his aspirations of becoming a hoax celebrity, though. His hero, Rene, had no college degree, and his other hero, Kaysing, only had a BA in English.
He is obviously an avid reader and dedicated researcher. He has actually acquired a great deal of technical and historical information from legitimate sources. This is to his credit. Unfortunately, his efforts over at least the last ten years have been dedicated to finding anything he can cook to give the appearance of supporting his position. It never seems to be a problem for him that not one of the real experts or insiders he quotes would ever give any credence to his hoax claims. Forest...trees...need I say more?
Finally, in his excessive sense of self-entitlement, he has filed at least 55 copyright infringement takedown notices on several other YouTubers. Every one of the videos he got YouTube to remove was clearly fair use. (The law requires Internet sites to remove any material on which a copyright infringement claim has been filed. YouTube is specifically prohibited from making their own judgment.) However, Jarrah has his own legal standards, which he imposes on other users. He thinks copyright infringement complaints are justified if he doesn't like what the video-maker has to say. His malice was illustrated by the fact that on three of the accounts he attacked, he deliberately split those DMCA complaints over several days in order to maximize the strikes YouTube would issue to those accounts, resulting in their termination. Even after numerous takedowns were counter-notified by his victims and the videos and accounts restored, he continued doing it. Finally, after about three years of people telling him what he was doing was illegal, I think he finally got the message. So then he found a way YouTube will remove videos, sight unseen, through certain kinds of community flags. Altogether, this serial censor has gotten YouTube to remove nearly 100 videos. (27 of those were mine).
The most despicable example of this that I know of was one of the most recent. He took down PhilWebb59's four excellent, scholarly videos on DMCA and YouTube takedowns by Jarrah. Phil makes extremely careful and well-researched videos. He also does _nothing_ in those videos which anyone would consider inappropriate. Within 24 hours of the removal of Phil's videos, (again, obviously sight unseen by YouTube administration), White uploaded his own video on DMCA, of course, with his own self-serving interpretation of the law and YouTube terms of service.
It is my hope that what time he spends in college will enlighten him. But what then? His life's work for almost a decade was denying Apollo. He's made over 400 videos on the subject. He's called nearly all of his opponents liars, including Jay, me, and maybe some others on this forum. But even if he made a complete retraction and removed all his videos, apologized to all the people he has falsely slandered, apologized for frivolously flagging or illegally DMCA-ing almost a hundred videos, he would still never be able to undo the damage he has done through the misinformation he has disseminated and the number of gullible or young followers he has wrongly inspired.
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. . . And his other hero, Kaysing, only had a BA in English.
Is it my turn to apologize, this time for people with a BA in English?
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Here is a small coin from the Netherlands; Jarrah White has invested a huge amount of time, energy, and above all, ego in his position. Yes, he probably began with a sincere but also naive belief, founded in ignorance, that the Apollo moon landings really were faked. As he got further into the details of Apollo -and especially as others have patiently explained his errors in detail- he must have begun to have second thoughts. But by then it was too late. He had already committed himself publicly, and there was no turning back. I think his actions (abuse of the DMCA) toward his most effective critics belie what's really going on inside his head.
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In respect to knowledge lost, which I certainly do lament, I often think to myself that if I knew it then I can certainly re-learn it now. Time is the issue hence researching information on the internet is about as much as I can give time for at the moment.
My son is a music major who had considered engineering to be his career path when he was at high school. He has a year left and through his studies has been exposed to experimental music which has piqued his interest in physics again and wants to continue studying a science degree part time. I told him that I would enrol with him and we could share the passion together.
I have often been asked, many, many time by my wife, why I bother arguing with conspiracy theorists.
My answer is that, first and foremost, with a degree of egotism I admit, I cannot abide stupid.
I can’t help it, it’s a failing I know. I was the child who always corrected others and it alienated me. Why were they not interested in getting it right or seeking knowledge? I just couldn’t understand it.
As I got older I wised up and let things go for my own social benefit, although to this day I have a problem with small talk. If someone doesn’t pique my interest I just don’t really want to waste my time with them. With age however I found it more and more difficult to tolerate wanton ignorance.
Conspiracy theorists are the epitome of wanton ignorance and self-congratulation. They drag the reputation of those who have achieved, often with great risk, through the mud. The blood, sweat and tears, long, long hours of work away from loved ones for the benefit and wonder of mankind.
The antagonism towards scientists who “blindly follow what they are told” enrages me. These people don’t even seem to understand that the only reason they can communicate online, drive to work, fly to another country, cook their food, watch TV, live long and healthy lives, is purely because of science and the people who do, really, understand it.
If we don’t fight this level of ignorance, it will spread. People will doubt because they did not live through it. Anti - vaccination is a clear example of this. How many people in first world countries do you see with the effects of polio these days? I had three children in my primary school who did.
These days the younger generations have been spared and most of them wouldn’t know what polio is. Due to immunisation.
Bad information gets about so easily these days, I have a friend in Europe who blames everything on the ‘Zionists’. Every major event, from the MH370 loss to the Paris shootings even school shootings in the states were false flag events. He posts all of this on facebook. People read it, some will believe it. I never miss an opportunity to counter his arguments. In fact I joined facebook for that reason.
It is an insult to all the people who strived, who died, who selflessly sacrificed for one reason or another, and it is not something to brush off or ignore. History needs to be preserved.
I watched Interstellar for the first time last night. Matthew McConaughey’s character was called in to discuss his children’s behaviour. His daughter’s teacher’s complaint was that she had brought a book on the Apollo missions to school and spreading lies because the official school text stated that the missions were faked to bankrupt the Soviet Union. Could this become reality if we don’t stop the stupid?
More rambling's I'm afraid and, I suspect, mostly off topic, but it's good to find like minded people who do understand.
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I watched Interstellar for the first time last night. Matthew McConaughey’s character was called in to discuss his children’s behaviour. His daughter’s teacher’s complaint was that she had brought a book on the Apollo missions to school and spreading lies because the official school text stated that the missions were faked to bankrupt the Soviet Union. Could this become reality if we don’t stop the stupid?
I smiled when I heard that, and my partner dug me gently in the ribs.
Its a proposal that has been debunked of course. If Apollo was faked to bankrupt the Russians, why keep faking it ...
a. when the Russians denied even having a Moon programme at the time the Apollo program started?
b. after the Russians stopped trying to get to the Moon?
c. When the Russians didn't get bankrupted?
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I guess it can be said that all the hoax theories can be debunked, but the believers will be in denial and the rest just don't care.
The fall back on tired arguments, e.g. You can't trust NASA or the scientific world in general or that we just blindly believe what we are told, are used as an "out", frustrates me no end. It's nothing more than fingers in ears and la, la, la.
Even my brother asked me how much I was being paid! My response was nothing of course but when the NWO comes into place and they are throwing people in the FEMA death camps, they will recognise me and offer membership to the Elite.
Jarrah White uses some very 'clever' words and phrases. Clearly, obviously, plain to see, would have to etc. He leads the viewer and forces them to accept his way of thinking. He is a fast talker and appears to hammer the smallest of details to make a point.
I noticed he also refers to a lot of older texts and reports pre Apollo and passes them off as the only information available. No one could possibly have made any more discoveries beyond 1963.
His experiments are asinine to the extreme. And his voice grates on me. Funnier still is the voice over person he uses to read Jay Windley's comments. Is that done on purpose I wonder?
He is good at creating, fast talking videos with the appearance of deep research. And I would say he is probably the most dangerous conspiracy theorist out there at the moment for that reason. Obviously they are a total pile of the proverbial and my hope is as long as he stays on Youtube he will eventually burn out or give up. He may even change his profession from movie maker to Astrophysicist in four or five decades.
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He is good at creating, fast talking videos with the appearance of deep research. And I would say he is probably the most dangerous conspiracy theorist out there at the moment for that reason. Obviously they are a total pile of the proverbial and my hope is as long as he stays on Youtube he will eventually burn out or give up. He may even change his profession from movie maker to Astrophysicist in four or five decades.
Some time ago, I guy called S G Collins (a film-maker) posted a video explaining that it was technologically impossible to have created a faked video record of Apollo by filming it here on Earth. If you haven't seen it, it is well worth the 13 minutes or so to watch...
The Blunder was not happy when he saw this. Not happy at all!
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Just watched it, thanks for the link. This guy has my sense of humour.
It's very logical and well explained, I wonder if JW responded to this. He more than likely did. He could not have let that pass.
Seeing as it's NASA we're talking about, they would have had all sorts of secret equipment that could have achieved a fake video. Naturally.
I know he goes on (JW) about slow motion but has he ever tried to explain the dirt kicked up behind the rover wheels or the behaviour of any of the dirt for that matter? That to me is the single most valuable piece of evidence that proves they were on the moon.
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Jarrah - If you're watching, this is for you:
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I must be crazy but I found Jarrah's response.
If he thinks that's the equipment NASA used then he also needs to prove that they used it. It's not enough to use the old woulda, shoulda, coulda. He has zero evidence that what he was spewing was actually the way it was.
SG Collins on the other hand, actually gave an explanation to the rainbow effect on the return launch which I have always wondered about.
Jarrah likes to attack and mock. It's obvious you have to be very careful when addressing him because he will use every reasonable comment and turn it against you. SG made the innocent comment that he did was unsure whether they went to the moon or not but only suggesting it would be impossible to fake the videos. Thus inferring that they must have gone. All Jarrah used was the first part of the statement to ridicule.
I will give him one house point for appearing to do some heavy research, but take 10 house points away for the saliva he must have sprayed everywhere through his ravenous eagerness to prove SG Collins wrong or incompetent.
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As the self-appointed "grandson of the Apollo hoax" Jarrah seems to think that anyone, especially someone well known, who publicly debunks an Apollo hoax claim is obligated to consult him first. He has a history of stalking not only our own Jay Windley but also Phil Plait and especially the Mythbusters, who had the temerity to devote an entire episode to the subject in 2009 without consulting him even once.
Here's a more recent example of him throwing a snit at yet another well-done bust of a hoax claim:
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You guys are spoiling me. I should do some research on my own.
Grandson of the Apollo hoax indeed. He's not even the mentally impaired younger cousin of the Bigfoot hoax.
I wonder if he has ever been offered a forum on TV against some well informed experts. Well informed of his tactics that is.
I think that's the problem, experts know their material and have absolute confidence in the facts. I have watched Kent Hovind debate a group of biologists once. He was a very, very fast talker and the biologists were not prepared for his tirade. He actually made them look uncomfortable. Who ever enters into such debates need to know their opponent not just the material.
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Absolutely. They especially need to be aware of the Gish Gallop, named for the late creationist Duane Gish who used it often. Basically you just flood your opponent with a long list of bogus statements and half-truths without giving him any time to properly answer any of them.
It exploits a saying well known in Congress: if you have to explain, you've already lost.
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I can’t help it, it’s a failing I know. I was the child who always corrected others and it alienated me. Why were they not interested in getting it right or seeking knowledge? I just couldn’t understand it.
There's someone I know who I'm never going to get along with, because she thinks I'm trying to show off how smart I am when I do that, and I assume everyone would want to know.
If we don’t fight this level of ignorance, it will spread. People will doubt because they did not live through it. Anti - vaccination is a clear example of this. How many people in first world countries do you see with the effects of polio these days? I had three children in my primary school who did.
These days the younger generations have been spared and most of them wouldn’t know what polio is. Due to immunisation.
I was talking about immunization on Facebook a while ago (this was while my son was still too young to get the MMR, too), and I noticed that one of my aunts had commented on one of my posts. I was slightly nervous about it, because said aunt spent her vacation this summer on a faith-healing trip through Eastern Europe, so I wasn't sure I wanted to read what she had to say. However, my aunt is in her sixties. She remembers when polio was still a scourge in the US. She likes vaccination.
It is an insult to all the people who strived, who died, who selflessly sacrificed for one reason or another, and it is not something to brush off or ignore. History needs to be preserved.
I actually consider betrayal of history to be a sin. "They" literally could not pay me enough to argue for a hoax of which I could not see the evidence. Actually, I make kind of an intellectual game of conspiracies--I take the known evidence and try to build a conspiracy that works within it. Just to see if it's possible. With Apollo, it isn't possible.
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I'm not to sure how to quote you gillianren, but I'll work it out.
What I don't understand is why certain people don't have a thirst for knowledge. They seriously only care about their immediate lives. I'm not judging them for wanting to be like that, I just don't understand them.
I don't feel smart. I had the opportunity to apply for Mensa but declined due to my own insecurity. You can only take their test once. If you fail to achieve the required level that's the end of it. At the moment I still have an invitation.
I constantly crave knowledge, I remember the most obscure things sometimes without even knowing where I got it from.
What does infuriate me is when someone wants to learn or has the ability to learn and can't or won't. I truly believe that education is the key to everything and possibly the only thing to drag the world out of the mess it's in.
I see the current trend of conspiracies and suspicion of everything scientific, medicinal, and governmental, to a lesser degree, a world wide dumming down.
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He is good at creating, fast talking videos with the appearance of deep research. And I would say he is probably the most dangerous conspiracy theorist out there at the moment for that reason. Obviously they are a total pile of the proverbial and my hope is as long as he stays on Youtube he will eventually burn out or give up. He may even change his profession from movie maker to Astrophysicist in four or five decades.
Some time ago, I guy called S G Collins (a film-maker) posted a video explaining that it was technologically impossible to have created a faked video record of Apollo by filming it here on Earth. If you haven't seen it, it is well worth the 13 minutes or so to watch...
The Blunder was not happy when he saw this. Not happy at all!
And Collins also posted an excellent rebuttal to The Blunder's response
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I'm not to sure how to quote you gillianren, but I'll work it out.
You click on the Quote link at the upper right of each post and then work your way through the HTML-but-not-quite tags that get dumped into the text area.
What I don't understand is why certain people don't have a thirst for knowledge.
Often they do, but they lack the time, the means, or the ability to obtain it. Conspiracy theories then become a sort of shortcut to the illusion of erudition for some people. They make the claimant seem well-informed if for some reason the real information comes hard to him.
Paradoxically, many conspiracy theorists use their theories for ego-reinforcement by tearing away at the Establishment that rejected them. Rather than work hard and try to acquire the knowledge they lack, which just makes them one face among thousands, they lash out in resentment with accusatory ignorance, which makes them stand out as noisy celebrities. It's not scholarship. It's an egotistical, arrogant ploy for constant attention and validation.
I don't feel smart. I had the opportunity to apply for Mensa but declined due to my own insecurity.
You're not missing much. I was a member for a few years, but then realized they are largely the kind of people who can talk your ear off about hyperspatial manifolds, then go out to the car and pour the oil in their radiators instead of the crankcase. In the subsequent years I've learned that thinking critically is a more valuable skill than the kind of stuff Mensa tests you on. I worked as a contract engineer on the Boeing 777 and the Boeing 787 projects (oddly enough in very different roles), but I've probably learned more about jet engines from watching Agent JZ on YouTube than I ever did from my actual professional training.
Your insecurity is unfounded. From what you've written so far here, you come across quite intelligent and witty.
I see the current trend of conspiracies and suspicion of everything scientific, medicinal, and governmental, to a lesser degree, a world wide dumming down.
Indeed. There's the idea of a healthy degree of suspicion that keeps unscrupulous people from doing bad things. But there's a growing anti-science movement that I have a hard time figuring out.
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What does infuriate me is when someone wants to learn or has the ability to learn and can't or won't. I truly believe that education is the key to everything and possibly the only thing to drag the world out of the mess it's in.
I've said for many years now that there is no shame in ignorance. Everyone is ignorant in something. It used to be a game to figure out new things that we could with confidence say Jay was ignorant in, for example, and the list of things I myself am ignorant in is a rather long one. The shame is willful ignorance, in refusing to learn even after you've been given the opportunity. Like, getting back to the vaccine thing, a friend of a friend who was told exactly how mercury worked in Thimerosal, then continued to rant about the dangers of mercury in vaccines.
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I should do some research on my own.
No one here will stop you. In fact, they'll likely point you to more material than you could possibly hope to read in a single lifetime.
I wonder if he has ever been offered a forum on TV against some well informed experts.
Now that you mention it, he was invited to present his "findings" on space radiation and Apollo to qualified university faculty in his city. All he had to do was show up. He refused even to acknowledge that the invitation had been tendered. That to me speaks volumes not only for his competence, but for his recognition of how badly his claims would fare outside his selected walled gardens. He went back and tried to delete the evidence of his public failures. This to me indicates a deliberate attempt to deceive.
Who ever enters into such debates need to know their opponent not just the material.
Indeed, each of these various hoax claimants has a unique style and m.o. I generally ignore Jarrah White, first for the obvious reason that he has a reputation for being uncivil and foul-mouthed. Second (as has been noted), he seems to spend more time on vilifying his critics than on historical and technical scholarship. I and Phil Plait seem to have been his chosen subjects, and I won't validate that sort of sick obsession.
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I and Phil Plait seem to have been his chosen subjects...
I may have moved up a spot or two on his enemies list since I had the audacity to challenge him on his radiation nonsense. Of course it's entirely alright with me if I remain only a minor player.
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Of course it's entirely alright with me if I remain only a minor player.
Hardly, your calculations were thorough and stand as a repository that has gravitas beyond the 'back of a cigarette packet' calculations and handwaving.
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I think, Astrobrant is one of the top on the enemylist. I watched several of Brants brilliant clips which debunk Whites claims.
By the way: Great job, Brant :)
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I'm just curious, does anybody know what Jarrah does for a living?
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I'm just curious, does anybody know what Jarrah does for a living?
No idea. Last I heard, full time student.
However, that raises the question. As we all know, employers will check out one's online presence as a matter of course in order to assess the suitability of a job applicant. Our antipodean is in the position that he cannot delete his online presence no matter how hard he tries and is thus rendered unemployable in any meaningful role. As an employer, and having interviewed many individuals, I can say definitively that not even an interview would be offered. And thus the problem. Our antipodean has no choice anymore but to stick to his hoaxie guns, because nobody who checked would contemplate even offering a broom.
ETA: Of course should our protagonist object, he has only to log in and say, LOL.
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Our antipodean is in the position that he cannot delete his online presence no matter how hard he tries and is thus rendered unemployable in any meaningful role. As an employer, and having interviewed many individuals, I can say definitively that not even an interview would be offered.
That was my reason for asking. I know that I'd chuck his resume into the trash the instant I saw his online presence. He's not a kid anymore, I believe he's in his mid-30s. He ought to be out earning a living and building a career. As much as I dislike the guy for what he's doing and for his poor behavior, it is a sad waste of a life if he has ruined his future with all this hoax nonsense.
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The obvious solution is that he changes his name.
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Hi Chief,
I noticed you wondered about the confetti artefacts as brought up by SG Collins. If you are interested (and I hope LO doesnt mind me plugging them) I wrote two books on NASA TV development from Mercury through to Shuttle. Live TV From the Moon and Live TV From Orbit.
I advise getting them direct from Apogee Books, as I have seen the outrageous prices demanded by Amazon sellers.
Stuff like the confetti and who filmed Neil Armstrong stepping off the LM are covered.
Regards
Dwight
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I advise getting them direct from Apogee Books, as I have seen the outrageous prices demanded by Amazon sellers.
I'd love to, but its out of stock. >:(
Anyone got a copy that they'd be willing to sell?
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Thanks for the pep talk Jay, unnecessary but I'll take whatever I can get. I'm the most intelligent person I know, which is not saying much at all really ;D
You're not missing much. I was a member for a few years, but then realized they are largely the kind of people who can talk your ear off about hyperspatial manifolds, then go out to the car and pour the oil in their radiators instead of the crankcase. In the subsequent years I've learned that thinking critically is a more valuable skill than the kind of stuff Mensa tests you on. I worked as a contract engineer on the Boeing 777 and the Boeing 787 projects (oddly enough in very different roles), but I've probably learned more about jet engines from watching Agent JZ on YouTube than I ever did from my actual professional training.
I figured that was the case with the Mensa lot and I prefer to talk about engine manifolds.
I do love gas turbines, I've always thought there is something very graceful about them, noisy, but graceful. I still have my hand written notes on my shelf from when I was studying them and have a read occasionally. I think I should have done medicine with my handwriting the way it was though.
One of the guys I was studying with at the time found out something quite incredible. He was visiting his aged grandmother and she asked him how he was going at school and what he was studying.
He told her and mentioned that he was learning about jet engines.
Her initial comment was "Oh do they still make them?" to which he replied that of course most passenger planes use them.
She then went on to tell him that around the late 30s his great uncle was working with a man on jet engines. His name was Whittle!
He was getting into the family business without even knowing it.
Dwight, Sacrilege I know, but you don't publish an electronic copy do you?
That was my reason for asking. I know that I'd chuck his resume into the trash the instant I saw his online presence. He's not a kid anymore, I believe he's in his mid-30s. He ought to be out earning a living and building a career. As much as I dislike the guy for what he's doing and for his poor behaviour, it is a sad waste of a life if he has ruined his future with all this hoax nonsense.
He has made his bed he can sleep in it. He may be a qualified broom technician, or a vehicle performance enhancement officer specialising in the reduction of the CD who knows?
Although, not everyone does that thorough a background check, as long as they have the qualifications for the job it would come down to personality and communication skills. I have a feeling that if he came in to my office for a job, and I didn't check him out online, he would probably come across as articulate and capable. But that is why I have a six month probation period.
Now that you mention it, he was invited to present his "findings" on space radiation and Apollo to qualified university faculty in his city. All he had to do was show up. He refused even to acknowledge that the invitation had been tendered. That to me speaks volumes not only for his competence, but for his recognition of how badly his claims would fare outside his selected walled gardens. He went back and tried to delete the evidence of his public failures. This to me indicates a deliberate attempt to deceive.
I agree with you there. He is deceptive, he uses the same tactics as many other conspiracy theorists by taking snap shots of video, comments, text etc. and, as far as I am concerned deliberately failing to show those pieces which would counter his arguments. His m.o. is typical. That is why I doubt he really believes in a hoax.
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I figured that was the case with the Mensa lot
I thought about Mensa too. Until i was helping a friend with his rental properties and one major problem was some Mensa geek who didn't understand why his super intelligence was an insufficient substitute for the rent. I guess it was really all he had.
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I advise getting them direct from Apogee Books, as I have seen the outrageous prices demanded by Amazon sellers.
I'd love to, but its out of stock. >:(
Anyone got a copy that they'd be willing to sell?
Abebooks has some at almost sensible prices, depending on which book and where in the world you are:
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=Dwight+Steven-Boniecki&sts=t
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It's also difficult to reconcile his blatant mathematical incompetence with the pursuit of a degree in physics (or any science subject)
Indeed his first downfall at IMDb was a fairly straightforward application of calculus.
I found and read some of the thread, but became too fatigued to continue.
Jay, did he ever come up with the calculation?
And for that matter what is the calculation? I hope you finally presented an answer for all the lurkers like me.
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It's also difficult to reconcile his blatant mathematical incompetence with the pursuit of a degree in physics (or any science subject)
Indeed his first downfall at IMDb was a fairly straightforward application of calculus.
I found and read some of the thread, but became too fatigued to continue.
Jay, did he ever come up with the calculation?
And for that matter what is the calculation? I hope you finally presented an answer for all the lurkers like me.
Bob B has produced the calculations. There is a thread somewhere (someone help me here) with the link to Bob's work and the wonderful graphic showing Jarrah's botched attempts post-IMDb to produce said calculation. Jarrah's attempt to produce a calculation finished up being the area of a rectangle rather than the integrated dose across a flux of different particle energy.
The blue red graph of which I speak highlights that he still did not understand Jay's probing questions, nor the fundamental ideas of calculus. It is also very amusing.
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Bob B has produced the calculations. There is a thread somewhere (someone help me here) with the link to Bob's work and the wonderful graphic showing Jarrah's botched attempts post-IMDb to produce said calculation. Jarrah's attempt to produce a calculation finished up being the area of a rectangle rather than the integrated dose across a flux of different particle energy.
The blue red graph of which I speak highlights that he still did not understand Jay's probing questions, nor the fundamental ideas of calculus. It is also very amusing.
There have been several threads that have dealt with this issue in one way or another. The following are the ones I remember:
A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=626.0)
UH-OH! More bad info for Wunder-Blunder to use! (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=672.0)
Response from "American Scientist" editor (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=678.0)
Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=683.0)
The graph that Luke talks about above is in the second thread, page 4, post #58.
For additional reading, the following are the articles that I wrote about this topic:
Review of Jarrah White's "Radioactive Anomaly III" (http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/JWhite.htm)
Apollo and the Van Allen Belts (an estimate of the radiation dose received) (http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/VABraddose.htm)
Apollo 11's Translunar Trajectory (and how they avoided the heart of the radiation belts) (http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/apollo11-TLI.htm)
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Bob B has produced the calculations. There is a thread somewhere (someone help me here) with the link to Bob's work and the wonderful graphic showing Jarrah's botched attempts post-IMDb to produce said calculation. Jarrah's attempt to produce a calculation finished up being the area of a rectangle rather than the integrated dose across a flux of different particle energy.
The blue red graph of which I speak highlights that he still did not understand Jay's probing questions, nor the fundamental ideas of calculus. It is also very amusing.
There have been several threads that have dealt with this issue in one way or another. The following are the ones I remember:
A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=626.0)
UH-OH! More bad info for Wunder-Blunder to use! (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=672.0)
Response from "American Scientist" editor (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=678.0)
Response from Dr. Odenwald regarding VAB electron energy (http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=683.0)
The graph that Luke talks about above is in the second thread, page 4, post #58.
For additional reading, the following are the articles that I wrote about this topic:
Review of Jarrah White's "Radioactive Anomaly III" (http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/JWhite.htm)
Apollo and the Van Allen Belts (an estimate of the radiation dose received) (http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/VABraddose.htm)
Apollo 11's Translunar Trajectory (and how they avoided the heart of the radiation belts) (http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/apollo11-TLI.htm)
Ok, while not being a rocket scientist or an aerospace engineer (I'm an inner ground engineer), the figures that I saw in the discussion were (I had to return to the first couple of pages for the data):
Here is just one of the August flares.
720802 72077 1958-2355 13 -27 2B 11976 22333 13
And here is just one of the Apollo flares
700415 70052 0413-0530 13 85 2B 10670 32333 14
When Jay gave an immediate assessment of the of the answer, I assumed it was a trivial calculation.
I don't know:
1. where this data exists
2. nor what is represented, except for the date information
3. how the density/rate leading to the lethality is calculated
I believe I am similar to a majority of the people who happen by these videos "demonstrations". I remember integrating data back in school, but haven't used most of the advanced math since graduation. That's why I asked how the results were calculated.
In one of your pages you stated something like this: radiation is bad + there is radiation in space = space is bad
You should realize that many view that equation to be correct, not studying (or being too lazy) the actual data to arrive at an assessment of the effects. I guess that is why so many HB's use the radiation as "proof" it wasn't accomplished and why it hasn't been repeated. You guys do good work in debunking the bad science/technology, but many in my work associates (mostly only high school educated), who believe the HB's don't visit sites like this to learn they are being mislead by those who state the trash. Trying to show them the why the HB's are wrong took too much effort and I quit trying. Now I have some other places to direct them.
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Ok, while not being a rocket scientist or an aerospace engineer (I'm an inner ground engineer), the figures that I saw in the discussion were (I had to return to the first couple of pages for the data):
Here is just one of the August flares.
720802 72077 1958-2355 13 -27 2B 11976 22333 13
And here is just one of the Apollo flares
700415 70052 0413-0530 13 85 2B 10670 32333 14
When Jay gave an immediate assessment of the of the answer, I assumed it was a trivial calculation.
I don't know:
1. where this data exists
2. nor what is represented, except for the date information
3. how the density/rate leading to the lethality is calculated
I believe I am similar to a majority of the people who happen by these videos "demonstrations". I remember integrating data back in school, but haven't used most of the advanced math since graduation. That's why I asked how the results were calculated.
In one of your pages you stated something like this: radiation is bad + there is radiation in space = space is bad
You should realize that many view that equation to be correct, not studying (or being too lazy) the actual data to arrive at an assessment of the effects. I guess that is why so many HB's use the radiation as "proof" it wasn't accomplished and why it hasn't been repeated. You guys do good work in debunking the bad science/technology, but many in my work associates (mostly only high school educated), who believe the HB's don't visit sites like this to learn they are being mislead by those who state the trash. Trying to show them the why the HB's are wrong took too much effort and I quit trying. Now I have some other places to direct them.
I have read the IMDb thread and exchanged PMs with Jay on this subject. Jay will probably want to speak for himself, but the debate was more subtle than providing calculations. Jay's initial probe was to ascertain if Jarrah could show a correlation between H-alpha events and proton fluence at the Earth Moon system, as Jarrah had been keen citing H-alpha data (e.g. above in your post). My understanding was that Jay was looking for Jarrah to trip up and claim that there was a correlation with Solar Proton Events (SPEs) and the H-alpha prominence data that Jarrah cites. At this point it was evident that Jarrah was clueless, and further probing showed that Jarrah was not only clueless about integrated dose across an energy dependent flux, but was also clueless about calculus itself.
In the follow up, Jarrah claims that Jay was asking an unfair question as no GOES proton data exists pre-1976, so how could Jarrah answer the question about proton fluence. I have pointed out to Jarrah that if no proton data exists before 1976, how can he prove SPE events occurred during Apollo flights? He has not answered this point.
What Jarrah forgets, is that he uses SPE events (CME driven shock data, not flare data) that were reported pre-Apollo, and applies this to the duration of an H-alpha prominence by simply multiplying average dose rate from his pre-Apollo proton data by time. Hence Jarrah gets a rectangular box.
Jarrah also does not understand how SPE events were detected pre-GOES and how we know that during Apollo flights there were no SPE events. One does not need a satellite in space to detect SPEs. In fact they can be detected by various means at ground level and using high altitude detectors. Jarrah is clueless, and his knowledge of physics is poor.
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Jay will probably want to speak for himself...
No need. That's a very good summary.
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Jay will probably want to speak for himself...
No need. That's a very good summary.
Good and thank you. I don't like speaking for others, but I also feel that if the words come from the mouth of another horse, then it shows the community here are consistent in our views and the intial debate was cogent.
Also, thanks to Bob for the links. A nice summary of the counter arguments to White's idocy.
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Luke and Jay(you posted while I started to run this):
I have been for the past 3 days querying NOAA concerning the data and where it is located, all the 6 year old links are broken. Anyway I have been shown where the data exists, now the task to try to understand it.
Here is a video, which in part is directed at Jay, Phil and NASA. You have probably seen it but some may not.
Now I did some research on CFI for Major Flares:
ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/STP/SOLAR_DATA/SOLAR_FLARES/FLARES_IN?DEX/McMath/CFI55_80.TXT
The data in the format of what I believe to be pertinent to the discussion(the reason for the NOAA contact):
YYMMDD ID# UT Lat Long Imp Plage abcde Index
720802 72075 0316-0451 13 -35 1B 11976 32322 12
720802 72075 0505-0800 14 -34 SN 11976 32322 12
720802 72076 1838-1859 14 -26 1B 11976 21200 5?
720802 72077 1958-2355 13 -27 2B 11976 22333 13
Now since I don't know the calculation, I don't know which of these were dangerous in order 1 through 4; or for that matter if any were life threatening.
I know the missions are not fake and it irritates me that so many do believe they were. I can remember when FOX aired "Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon?", and being FOX had been fairly presenting both sides of a particular argument. I kept WAITING for the opposing point of view, right up to the credits. I took FOX off my TV for many years. Since I'm not working as many days this year, I just started delving back into the HB's. I was amazed on how many have joined the "cause", Sibrel, Percy and Allen obviously for monetary benefit. This correlated well to some of my previous work mates feelings, so I should not have been surprised.
Edited to add not in the last paragraph, getting old is hell sometimes
2nd Edit OMG, Luke your comment concerning h-alpha data revised my NOAA search and I found the table I had been searching. Thanks
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720802 72075 0316-0451 13 -35 1B 11976 32322 12
720802 72075 0505-0800 14 -34 SN 11976 32322 12
720802 72076 1838-1859 14 -26 1B 11976 21200 5?
720802 72077 1958-2355 13 -27 2B 11976 22333 13
The flares occurred during the 1972 solar storm, but these data describe the duration of H-alpha prominences, areas of the sun where filament heating occurs. The coding 1B, SN, and 2B describe the 'magnitude' of the prominence. I'd have to go digging in the loft for a text, but if I recall the number pertains to the brightness of the prominence and the letter pertains to the area of the prominence. It is quite a subjective classification. SN, I'm fairly sure, means it is too minor to classify. The number goes up as far as 4, which is the brightest prominence. The third set of numbers describe the duration of the prominence. This time does not represent the time of a solar flare, it represents the duration of the flare developing from initial heating to the final connection of the magnetic field. The final connection period is where the flare produces soft x-rays over a duration, typically measured in seconds.
The solar storm that occurred at the same time was created by a shock driven CME, and such events are accompanied by active regions of the sun showing H-alpha prominences. However, an H-alpha prominence does not always correlate with a shock driven CME. In other words, shock driven CMEs are usually a result of rearrangement of the solar magnetic field and ejection of plasma, where regions of the sun become H-alpha active. Regions of the sun can also become H-alpha active, but there is no large scale rearrangement of the magnetic field.
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Here is a video, which in part is directed at Jay, Phil and NASA. You have probably seen it but some may not.
Curiosity killed this cat in the end. That's a video made by a certain individual called Rick (un4g1v3n1). I really wouldn't give him any traffic or any time. He and his close friends have more vitriol than your average hoaxer-bear. He's out and out called me a paedophile for opposing his hoax nonsense. He's also thrown that accusation at others, for... wait for it... believing the official Apollo story.
It took me a while to work out why he went to this default accusation, and I think that it is because he links Apollo with the God and that God had a certain taste in young boys (my mythology is poor here) ???. That's the logic of him, so I'd pay him and his sort very little attention and not give his videos any view traffic.
Jarrah White and Rick are the best of chums. They say you can't choose your family, but you can choose your friends. Jarrah, the highly moralistic Grandson [sarcasm mode], chooses to keep him as a bed fellow, so I'd say that Jarrah's morals are pretty low too, and rather hypocritical. Jarrah sells himself on wanting to play a clean game, but is quite happy for his friends to behave like rabid attack dogs if Jay, Phil Plait and Adam Savage are in the firing line.
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I have to ask a perhaps stupid question: The only Adam Savage I know about is partnered with a person resembling a whalrus. Is it him you refer to above?
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I believe Luke referred to one of the myth busters. I don't know if Jamie Hyneman is the walrus you are mentioning.
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Yes.
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I have to ask a perhaps stupid question: The only Adam Savage I know about is partnered with a person resembling a whalrus. Is it him you refer to above?
The Adam Savage I refer to is indeed the one from Mythbusters. Jarrah spent some time harrassing Adam and Phil Plait at TAM8, secretly recording them using a pen camera and spending his time stalking their every move. Jarrah came across as being an angry loner, and this was duly noted by both Adam and Phil, they dealt with him using some put downs. It was all rather amusing watching Jarrah take on a published PhD and a very smart and incisive TV celebrity. I would have been ashamed to post the footage if had been slapped down in such a fashion. But no... :o
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Yes. One of the requirements for being a hoax advocate is a complete lack of any sense of shame. That's in addition to a general cluelessness about physics, math, engineering, logic, human nature, etc.
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The Adam Savage I refer to is indeed the one from Mythbusters. Jarrah spent some time harrassing Adam and Phil Plait at TAM8, secretly recording them using a pen camera and spending his time stalking their every move. Jarrah came across as being an angry loner, and this was duly noted by both Adam and Phil, they dealt with him using some put downs. It was all rather amusing watching Jarrah take on a published PhD and a very smart and incisive TV celebrity. I would have been ashamed to post the footage if had been slapped down in such a fashion. But no...
Its me or this guy Jarrah seems to have some ego issues?
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We generally do not make light of mental illness here. Some of us here do, in fact, grapple with such issues, and we're not JW. In my absolutely amateur opinion, I don't think anything Jarrah White does can really be categorized as such. Humans are quite capable of serious levels of self-delusion and ego without resorting to such an explanation.
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We generally do not make light of mental illness here. Some of us here do, in fact, grapple with such issues, and we're not JW. In my absolutely amateur opinion, I don't think anything Jarrah White does can really be categorized as such. Humans are quite capable of serious levels of self-delusion and ego without resorting to such an explanation.
Sorry, I have changed it.
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We generally do not make light of mental illness here. Some of us here do, in fact, grapple with such issues, and we're not JW. In my absolutely amateur opinion, I don't think anything Jarrah White does can really be categorized as such. Humans are quite capable of serious levels of self-delusion and ego without resorting to such an explanation.
I agree. You do not have to be suffering from any kind of mental health issues to be stupid.
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Jarrah reminds me of a 5th grade classmate. We were in the science part of the day, shortly after Sputnik 1, when my great teacher asked us "How can rockets put satellites into orbit?"(paraphrased because I can't remember the exact words almost 58 years ago).
Anyway I had watched everything I could concerning the satellite and raised my hand answering "it must overcome gravity".
My classmate raised his hand and said and said no it was inertial force that must be overcome. The teacher put leashes on each of us and started a debate. Sadly to say my limited amount of knowledge (science and debate skills)did not bring him up to speed. The teacher finally ended the debate in my favor, but he wasn't convinced with the idea. Even later out of class he continued to argue the failed argument. At least his excuse was being a 10 year old kid that hadn't been educated, yet. I hope he changed his mind in the ensuing years.
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Actually, both gravity and inertia must be overcome. Gravity to get the spacecraft into space, and inertia to keep it there by moving it horizontally so fast that the earth falls away before the spacecraft can fall back onto it.
Ignoring thrust, air drag and other perturbations, the sum of a satellite's kinetic and potential (gravitational) energy remains constant. In a circular orbit they are also individually constant, but in an elliptical orbit some of the energy moves back and forth between the two forms.
In a low earth orbit nearly all of the total (~95%) is in kinetic energy.
KE + PE = constant is true even for an open, hyperbolic 'escape' trajectory like that of the Pioneers, Voyagers and New Horizons as they leave the solar system. As they gain potential energy climbing out of the sun's gravity well, they slow down to lose an equal amount of kinetic energy.
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Of course, but to we 5th graders the question was what must be overcome. MUCH later in studies inertia was studied, and inertia of an object must be increased to achieve orbit, I seem to remember the integral if = io + .5 * m * v2. I guess one might infer an increase is an overcome.
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The inertia is just the mass; you don't change it to achieve orbit but you do have to overcome it in the sense that you have to exert a force on it for some period of time, and that force is proportional to the mass.
You also overcome gravity by exerting a force proportional to the mass.
You've probably noticed that rockets lift off vertically, then gradually arc over until they're horizontal. So at the beginning you're mostly overcoming gravity, and then you transition entirely into overcoming inertia.
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The inertia is just the mass; you don't change it to achieve orbit...
Although the rocket does end up changing mass as fuel is expended. Think of it as pushing a heavy shopping cart while your toddler throws your purchases overboard. You're overcoming inertia all the time, but it gets easier the farther you go. Inertia per se doesn't behave like that, but rocket inertia does.
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The inertia is just the mass; you don't change it to achieve orbit...
Although the rocket does end up changing mass as fuel is expended. Think of it as pushing a heavy shopping cart while your toddler throws your purchases overboard. You're overcoming inertia all the time, but it gets easier the farther you go. Inertia per se doesn't behave like that, but rocket inertia does.
Uphill to make the analogy work.....
Personally I'd throw the toddler overboard and make him/her toddle ;)
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Although the rocket does end up changing mass as fuel is expended.
Sure. I was thinking of just the payload mass.
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Right -- the toddler's mass doesn't change appreciably.
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Right -- the toddler's mass doesn't change appreciably.
Unless it decides to have an unfortunate ejection of material during its flight around the grocery store (supermarket), but it usually flies with a self containment system for such events.
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"Houston, can you confirm a burst disk?"