Author Topic: Apollo 13  (Read 167289 times)

Offline Procopius

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #405 on: October 29, 2013, 08:31:04 PM »
It's the latter case, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

At least, they told you they're from Russia Today

Offline raven

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #406 on: October 29, 2013, 08:36:46 PM »
Welcome to the board, Procopius. I hope you have a fruitful and informative stay. :)

Offline Chew

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #407 on: October 29, 2013, 09:03:30 PM »
I found this video.

I don't know what to make of it...the whole video is really odd.

So he's been using his ridiculous "Mount Everest thin air is comparable to the Van Allen Belt" analogy since June 2012. And in all that time he never bothered to check if it was an accurate comparison. That's some slooooooooow investigative journalism.

Offline ApolloGnomon

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #408 on: October 30, 2013, 02:17:20 AM »
Heck, I'm not getting paid to parent, and it's a lot more work than picking apart someone's belief of what investigative journalism means.

I found this forum back when I had baby RocketGirl on my lap (margamatix era). I found a lot of similarity between hoax arguments and babies -- irrational screaming, surprise puke and frequent diapers full of poop. 

Offline beedarko

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #409 on: October 30, 2013, 03:51:04 AM »
I found this video.
I don't know what to make of it...the whole video is really odd.

Oh my.  He's the crazy-eyed uncle you're afraid to leave alone with the kids.

Am I the only one getting that vibe?


Offline smartcooky

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #410 on: October 30, 2013, 04:03:49 AM »
I found this video.
I don't know what to make of it...the whole video is really odd.

Oh my.  He's the crazy-eyed uncle you're afraid to leave alone with the kids.

Am I the only one getting that vibe?

Nope.

If that is allencw, then ......  good heavens!! It looks like morning drinkies!

Personally, I never drink alcohol until the sun is over the yardarm!

ETA: It certainly looks like him http://www.librarything.com/pic/167850

« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 04:05:43 AM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline ineluki

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #411 on: October 30, 2013, 09:34:25 AM »
frequent diapers full of poop.

Doctor Socks would have loved that one...

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #412 on: October 30, 2013, 10:56:25 AM »
I found this video.
I don't know what to make of it...the whole video is really odd.
edit to add...at the 1 minute 16 second mark, I think we see where AC gets his "inspiration".

Looking at that, it sounds as if Allancw might have watched or read some of Bennett & Percy's and Bart Sibrel's "works" during his investigations.

If so, I wonder if he had the good sense to pause and check the part in Sibrel's video "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon" where the narrator says, "When objects are lit solely by the sun... then all shadows, regardless of the landscape, will run parallel with one another and never intersect, as shown by this example." (It's at 0:24:32 in my 0:46:56 copy.)

A typical layperson who casually looks at the example might agree that the shadows are indeed parallel, but a more sensible person with a truly investigative bent would naturally pause the scene and check the shadows with straightedges.  Two sheets of A4 paper would do the trick on a small screen.

And lo and behold, the investigator will find that Sibrel's own shadows are certainly not parallel, and if extended far enough would indeed intersect near the edge of the screen.

Which says a lot about the truth, accuracy and reliability, or otherwise, of Sibrel's claims of a hoax.

Likewise, in Bennett and Percy's magnum dopus, "Dark Moon," page 22, there are two photos of tree shadows that they claim are parallel, but the laying-on of straightedges shows that the shadow lines in each photo intersect near the top of the adjacent photo.

Which also says a lot about Bennett and Percy's claims.

C'mon Allancw, tell us whether or not you properly investigated their work with such a simple experiment.

In fact, I wonder if any hoax-believers used their brains and ran the same checks; and of any that did, if they are still hoax-believers.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 11:00:41 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline gillianren

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #413 on: October 30, 2013, 11:41:52 AM »
I found this forum back when I had baby RocketGirl on my lap (margamatix era). I found a lot of similarity between hoax arguments and babies -- irrational screaming, surprise puke and frequent diapers full of poop. 

Don't forget the insistence that the world revolves around them.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #414 on: October 30, 2013, 01:39:58 PM »
Looking at that, it sounds as if Allancw might have watched or read some of Bennett & Percy's and Bart Sibrel's "works" during his investigations.

Almost certainly, since he's trying to play the photographic analysis angle (no pun intended).  A lot of people have tried to pass themselves off as photo analysts simply by repeating Percy's nonsense.  And of course Percy himself represents himself as such, even though it's clear he is not.  While he's a credentialed photographer, we see no examples of his work anywhere.  Nor does the credential apply to photographic analysis, which is different than photography.  And at any rate, Percy clearly just makes up stuff as he goes.  He has a list of "photo rules" -- i.e., properties he thinks should hold for authentic photographs and thus be useful in identifying fakes.  But they're just his inventions; they have no basis in the relevant sciences.  And Percy's last public response to critics came at the heels of having been shown that the cherry-picked photographs he cited in support of one photo "rule" actually break his other "rules."

I see Allan desperately trying to apply the same sort of shadow analysis to other photographs, but getting it obviously wrong.  Of course there are so many levels of fail here.  (Sorry, gillianren, but "failure" just doesn't have the proper vernacular ring to it.)  See below.

Again I have to draw the parallel (again, no pun intended) to Wayne Green.  He too bought into Bennett and Percy hook-line-and-sinker and was disappointed when, according to him, I had failed to appreciate Percy's special genius in photographic analysis.

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If so, I wonder if he had the good sense to pause and check the part in Sibrel's video "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon" where the narrator says, "When objects are lit solely by the sun... then all shadows, regardless of the landscape, will run parallel with one another and never intersect, as shown by this example."

"As shown by this example" is the standard cherry-picked example.  Of course it's possible to carefully arrange the objects and landscape to create the illusion of parallel shadows.  But it certainly isn't the norm.  That's why for every cherry-picked example foisted as "regardless of landscape," there can be displayed innumerable counterexamples showing the effects of terrain, object shape, phase angle, and ordinary perspective.

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And lo and behold, the investigator will find that Sibrel's own shadows are certainly not parallel, and if extended far enough would indeed intersect near the edge of the screen.

Indeed; see below.

Quote
Which says a lot about the truth, accuracy and reliability, or otherwise, of Sibrel's claims of a hoax.

Mark Gray's tireless efforts showed that Sibrel was indeed aware of the window-edge footage when he cherry-picked his Apollo footage.  And there is no question that he edited out the infamous dolly-back away from the CM window.

For the newcomers, Sibrel's A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon contains what purports to be "secret backstage" film footage that was shot but never aired, and which (according to him) shows clear signs that the Apollo 11 crew was faking their allegedly translunar footage from Earth orbit.  Sadly, Sibrel misunderstood a title slug on one of the reels he had been sent by NASA and upon that basis merely inferred that his footage never aired.  In fact he was showing bits of the live telecast.  Other footage didn't air live, but was recorded by MSFN, transmitted to Houston, and was published independently in the 1980s as part of a VHS series of the complete Apollo film record, much as what Mark Gray has done today at Spacecraft Films.

Sibrel's video argues variously that either the circular window or a transparency fastened to the window was used to simulate the distant Earth.  He argues there is never any context to show a distant Earth on the television footage.  However, in the test downlinks there is several seconds of just such footage, showing the distant Earth as well as a window bezel, and the relative motion between them.  At first Sibrel argued that this footage was not part of anything he received from NASA and therefore that NASA had produced it recently to discredit him.  But Gray showed conclusively that Sibrel had quoted from other parts of that reel, and hence could have been expected to see and know about it.  Further, existing copies of the VHS series were shown also to contain it.  Sibrel eventually had to admit it was authentic NASA footage that he had failed to account for, but simply wrote it off as "fake."

Sibrel's video also attempts to argue that in order to create the false footage, the television camera had to be placed across the cabin from the window, not right up in the window as is claimed (i.e., where you would normally position yourself to photograph something out the window).  He shows two shots:  one of the allegedly distant Earth, and then another clearly from across the cabin as the cabin lights are turned on to reveal where the camera man "really" is.  But in the source footage this is one long continuous shot where the initial image is of the distant Earth and then the camera clearly backs away from the window and the astronaut clearly says he is pulling back away from the window and preparing to adjust for interior lighting.  Sibrel blatantly edits out the evidence that clearly and convincingly disputes his claim.

Since he believed this was "secret" footage that no one else could ever see in its entirety, he apparently felt that no one would catch this edit.  But the bottom line is that it's very easy to make a case that Sibrel knew he was misrepresenting his evidence.  Even total incompetence doesn't account for all his "errors."  In my judgment, he intentionally and maliciously misstates the evidence.

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Likewise, in Bennett and Percy's magnum dopus, "Dark Moon," page 22, there are two photos of tree shadows that they claim are parallel, but the laying-on of straightedges shows that the shadow lines in each photo intersect near the top of the adjacent photo.

This is one of Percy's most annoying gaffes.  Not only do the three tree shadows converge, contrary to the author's claim, but Percy actually draws his "guide" line right over one of the shadows!

Of course this is not the preferred method of discerning shadows.  Only when you can make informed judgments about the shape of the object and the lay of the receiving terrain can you look at the extent of the shadow in an image and infer directional information from it.  The rigorous method of shadow vanishing-point analysis is to connect a feature on an object with the corresponding shadow of the same feature.  A "pencil" of such cast rays -- even in image space -- will point either to the light source or to the antipode of the light source, also in image space.

Such shenanigans rank right up there with drawing a line from the top of something in an image to the tip of its shadow in the image and pretending that gives the light-source elevation.  Lay persons will likely be fooled by this nonsense, but as Percy has discovered it does not fool anyone.  What's even worse is that before publishing his own book, he wrote of this in the Fortean Times and was shredded by an angry mob of photographers and photo interpreters.  He should have looked to than as an indication of how his claims would be received by a wider audience.  The fact that he ignored every correction and simply repeated his claims in the book suggests a vast quantity of intellectual dishonesty.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #415 on: October 30, 2013, 02:54:44 PM »

If so, I wonder if he had the good sense to pause and check the part in Sibrel's video "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon" where the narrator says, "When objects are lit solely by the sun... then all shadows, regardless of the landscape, will run parallel with one another and never intersect, as shown by this example." (It's at 0:24:32 in my 0:46:56 copy.)

A typical layperson who casually looks at the example might agree that the shadows are indeed parallel, but a more sensible person with a truly investigative bent would naturally pause the scene and check the shadows with straightedges.  Two sheets of A4 paper would do the trick on a small screen.

And lo and behold, the investigator will find that Sibrel's own shadows are certainly not parallel, and if extended far enough would indeed intersect near the edge of the screen.

It can also be a matter of perspective (pun intended).

Even lines on a photograph that you KNOW are parallel in reality, will most often not be parallel when measured on a photo. This is due to the vagaries of trying to display a three-dimensional world using two-dimensional media.


Everyone knows that the marking lines in a car park are parallel. This photo must be a fake, right?
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline darren r

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #416 on: October 30, 2013, 03:28:16 PM »



Everyone knows that the marking lines in a car park are parallel. This photo must be a fake, right?

Well, there's more than one light source so hoax, obviously  ;D
" I went to the God D**n Moon!" Byng Gordon, 8th man on the Moon.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #417 on: October 31, 2013, 01:09:50 AM »
No, supercomputing and the surveillance state.
My question was a joke, of course, but it sounds closer than I feared, especially with RT in the mix.

Re: Percy, etc.

Sounds like we've made our way back around to that famous exchange at the HSCA hearings:

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Mr. GOLDSMITH: I just have one more question Mr. White. Do you know what photogrammetry is?

Mr. WHITE: No.

Mr. GOLDSMITH: I have no further questions. Thank you.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 01:27:53 AM by Noldi400 »
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #418 on: October 31, 2013, 01:59:48 AM »
Mr. GOLDSMITH: I just have one more question Mr. White. Do you know what photogrammetry is?

Mr. WHITE: No.

Mr. GOLDSMITH: I have no further questions. Thank you.

Wasn't that amazing? I'd have thought that after a humiliating experience like that, any normal human being would have crawled home with his tail between his legs and never have been heard from again. But I underestimate people like Jack White, and many other parasites on fame. They seem to be immune to embarassment. In fact, I'm beginning to think that's a prerequisite for being a politician.

Offline sts60

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #419 on: May 11, 2014, 12:49:06 PM »
Welcome back to the board, Allan!

You guaranteed no documentation such as is shown below existed.   How do you propose to satisfy your guarantee?  Will you acknowledge your error, or cling to it? 
...Apollo 4 and 6 trajectories followed roughly the same path through the inner belt, the Apollo 6 trajectory spent more time in the region of highest proton intensity (as shown in Fig. 9) and, therefore, should have encountered more radiation dose... (my note: which it did!)
Very interesting! I didn't know this had been true for Apollos 4 and 6. Looks like 6 in particular passed right through the center of the inner belt. Does that reference give any dosimeter readings? It would be interesting to see what a worst case looks like.
A short excerpt from the Apollo 4 report:

5.20.3 Radiation Monitoring
There were three radiation monitoring instruments, an integrating radiation dosimeter (IRD) and two nuclear emulsion spectrometers (NES), onboard the Apollo 4 spacecraft.  All three instruments were recovered successfully and returned to MSC in good condition.  The IRD measureda skin dose of 0.59 rads and a depth dose of 0.38 rads.
Thanks, Tanalia.  Here is another excerpt showing that, yes, VAB trapped particle radiation was a hazard - just not the impossible one claimed by hoax believers (nor the straw man of "you say it's no problem at all" used by so many HBs).

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The measured and calculated VABD dose rates encountered in the inner radiation belt during the ascending portion of the Apollo 6 high-altitude orbit are shown in Figure 11. Peak dose rates of 3.6 and 2.6 rad/hr for the unshielded and shielded sensors, respectively, were encountered at altitudes of 1400 and 1500 n.mi as the spacecraft passed through the most intense portion of the inner radiation belt.  The Apollo 6 dose-rate measurements indicate that extended operation of a manned Apollo CM at altitudes between 800 and 2400 n.mi. would be severely limited because of dose rates in excess of 1 rad/hr.  Astronaut activity in more thinly shielded vehicles than the CM, such as the lunar module, or space suits would most likely be prohibited at these altitudes.

Again, the primary mitigations were "go fast" and "stay in the CM", as well as "go through the less intense regions".