Author Topic: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon  (Read 13374 times)

Offline VanHalenBelt

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Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« on: October 16, 2015, 03:37:05 PM »
Greetings everyone at this cool web site!

There are two main problem "categories" I have that make it hard for me to believe any human has ever walked on the moon, but there is a common thread in both: my instinct. This will make it hard to question, answer, or argue in any way, my reasons. We can argue until the end of time about whether a piece of data is true of false, but at the end of the day all we have left to form our opinions is our own brains and eyes. Our senses. Our intuition. We decide what we trust as the final step.

The first problem I have is the technical explanations provided by NASA about the Apollo missions. When I go through all the materials available from NASA on the subject of Apollo missions I am left unable to trust what I am seeing. In elementary school we were taught about Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong--primarily what they DID. There was little to nothing taught to us about how. In my late teens I already began to wonder if the moon landings were faked. As an adult this feeling has only grown. Since agreeing upon "definitions" is essential before a healthy argument my feelings about the technical materials almost make it impossible to have a scientific conversation on the matter.

The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.

So there you go. I know this post might not get us very far--some whack-o talking about his own observations and instincts but I would contest this is the most important tool we have for figuring things out. Bless you all.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2015, 03:52:33 PM »
Greetings everyone at this cool web site!

There are two main problem "categories" I have that make it hard for me to believe any human has ever walked on the moon, but there is a common thread in both: my instinct. This will make it hard to question, answer, or argue in any way, my reasons. We can argue until the end of time about whether a piece of data is true of false, but at the end of the day all we have left to form our opinions is our own brains and eyes. Our senses. Our intuition. We decide what we trust as the final step.

That's great. I trust science, engineering, and provable facts.

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The first problem I have is the technical explanations provided by NASA about the Apollo missions. When I go through all the materials available from NASA on the subject of Apollo missions I am left unable to trust what I am seeing. In elementary school we were taught about Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong--primarily what they DID. There was little to nothing taught to us about how. In my late teens I already began to wonder if the moon landings were faked. As an adult this feeling has only grown. Since agreeing upon "definitions" is essential before a healthy argument my feelings about the technical materials almost make it impossible to have a scientific conversation on the matter.

Your feelings are irrelevant. There is a vast amount of material out there describing, in minute detail, how Apollo was achieved. If you let your feelings ignore that, there is no point in you even joining this forum, never mind posting.

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The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.

How they 'look' to you and what you feel about them means jack. The photographs, film and TV contain demonstrable proof whether you like it or not.

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So there you go. I know this post might not get us very far--some whack-o talking about his own observations and instincts but I would contest this is the most important tool we have for figuring things out. Bless you all.

Yep. You pretty much nailed it.

Offline Rob260259

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2015, 04:10:40 PM »
Welcome.

Consider this: there have been hundreds of peer-reviewed papers written by hundreds of scientists all over the world on their examination of lunar samples brought back by the Apollo astronauts. In the early 1980s, scientists were able to show that terrestrial mineral and crystal deposits 65 million years old were similar to those found routinely in lunar ejecta (this led to the now widely accepted theory that the consequences of an asteroid impact had wiped out the dinosaurs).

Apollo was massive. Videos and pictures taken, telemetry with real time biomedical data, testemonies of astronauts that went, sixty scientific experiments left on the surface of the Moon and data received from them, the 840 pounds of rocks and 6 foot long intact core tube samples brought back, which have been studied around the world and verified to be non-terrestrial, satellites launched from SIM bays into lunar orbit and data received, reflectors left at the landing sites, etc. etc.


Offline darren r

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2015, 04:22:45 PM »

The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.

Well, it was staged, in a sense. The Moon landings didn't happen by accident. They were planned and organised. The astronauts had itineraries that they had to adhere to, experiments they had to perform. I don't know what else you'd be expecting it to look like.

And, I'm sorry, if you're going to claim 'looks fake' on here, you're going to have to do better than that. Why does it look 'fake' to you? What would you expect a Moon landing to look like?
" I went to the God D**n Moon!" Byng Gordon, 8th man on the Moon.

Offline gillianren

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2015, 04:46:37 PM »
Yeah, I just can't care about "but it looks fake to me and I can't explain why."  So what?  Why should I care?
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 04:57:48 PM »
There was little to nothing taught to us about how.

How much of that would have been appropriate for high school?  Conversely, how far did you go in formal education, in the directions that would have facilitated understanding the deeply technical foundations of a monumental engineering effort?  To those of us who obtained an appropriately thorough education on that topic and have gone on to practice it as our profession come to a very different conclusion than you.  Not only do we find the Apollo scientific and technical documentation thoroughly correct and comprehensible, we note that it would have been nigh unto impossible to fake without actually having solved the problems it purports to solve.

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Since agreeing upon "definitions" is essential before a healthy argument my feelings about the technical materials almost make it impossible to have a scientific conversation on the matter.

Nonsense.  The only definitions that rightly pertain to a scientific discussion of space engineering are the rather rigid definitions used by the science itself.  You either are conversant with them and can have a productive discussion, or you will have to learn them.

And I agree with my colleagues:  the correctness and completeness of the Apollo engineering record, or any such scientific exposition, are utterly irrelevant to how you feel about them.

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The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.

Unless you find a way to express the reasons why you believe the photographic record to have been staged, there is no rational basis upon which to consider your statement.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline ka9q

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 05:15:26 PM »
In elementary school we were taught about Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong--primarily what they DID. There was little to nothing taught to us about how.
Assuming you'd actually like to answer that question, I'd like to recommend the excellent book How Apollo Flew to the Moon by W. David Woods. You can find it on Amazon.

The title perfectly describes the contents: it tells you exactly how Apollo flew to the moon, system by system, step by step, in great detail. But it's somewhat above elementary school level.

Online Allan F

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 05:36:03 PM »
I kind of stumbled on your chosen screen-name. "VanHalenBelt" which tells me you haven't really looked into the information available. It is a common error by people not conversant in the subject to mistake Van Allen and Van Halen - even though one is a musician of a sorts, and the other was a well-respected scientist with a very large and well-reputed scientific output through his career.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 05:59:38 PM »
It's also a common joke, even amongst us. That's how I took it, until proven otherwise.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline VanHalenBelt

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2015, 06:05:04 PM »
I'd like to thank every response here, and anyone who reads my post. I especially appreciate the tone here--I can tell this is an enlightened group and potentially a source of quality information. You all have given me reason to continue learning more and never stop respecting all sides of this argument. My main point was to come here and express how extremely valuable I believe our own observations are, and making our own decisions about whether to accept any single piece of data as fake or real. This means not necessarily believing anything blindly, or due to pure faith in an information source, but always "testing".

It may seem whimsical and quite non-scientific, but I have done this completely on purpose because unlike 1969 we now live in an age of massive information AND dis-information. This makes navigation of all the data harder than ever. While I may not currently believe humans have ever walked on the moon the situation could change. So, thank you all.

Offline theteacher

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2015, 06:06:02 PM »
In elementary school we were taught about Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong--primarily what they DID. There was little to nothing taught to us about how.
Assuming you'd actually like to answer that question, I'd like to recommend the excellent book How Apollo Flew to the Moon by W. David Woods. You can find it on Amazon.

The title perfectly describes the contents: it tells you exactly how Apollo flew to the moon, system by system, step by step, in great detail. But it's somewhat above elementary school level.
And when you have finished reading this marvellous book, I shall recommend that you watch the film "In the Shadow of the Moon" from 2007, where members from all the Apollo missions that went to the Moon are sharing their experiences with the audience - and when you have read the book and watched the movie I would like you to tell us: Are all these fine old men sitting there lying to our face as you seem to think?

Offline dwight

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2015, 06:35:08 PM »
I would also recommend Moon Machines. As recounted by the people who actually designed, built and tested the hardware that went to the moon.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2015, 06:58:45 PM »
...unlike 1969 we now live in an age of massive information AND dis-information.

A reasonable proposition.  The error many make in that respect is to consider only Establishment sources as disinformative and respect "maverick" or self-proclaimed truth-seekers as conversely informative.  It cheapens the debate because it sets aside all the factual and expert analysis and simply reduces it to a matter of politics or preconceived loyalties.  The simple summary is that where space is concerned, there are a lot of people who, for whatever reason, delight in spewing quite a lot of bunk.  What might give you pause is the notion that among aerospace and scientific specialists, there simply is no controversy over whether Apollo was real.  It is rare almost to extinction to find anyone who disputes the science of the Moon missions who can actually speak about it with an expert understanding.  When the relevant experts unanimously agree on a thing, it's hard to argue that it's "really" fake.

Let me also endorse the book you were recommended.  I have read it, and it's meant to bridge most of the gap between high school physics and professional aerospace where Apollo is concerned.

On my shelf I have several of the standard references in spacecraft design, control, and propulsion.  These are naturally dense tomes, as they're mean to inform those who do that sort of thing as their profession.  While it may seem exotic and romantic, spacecraft design today is pursued no differently than designing cars or airplanes, and for the same private and commercial purposes.  There is considerable disadvantage and liability in producing products that do not function as requested.  Hence there is no value in writing reference books of duplicitous or vacuous claims.

The problems of control, for example, make extensive use of linear algebra, calculus, and control theory -- subjects that are beyond nearly every high school students and even most college students who do not pursue a math or engineering background.  These tools allow us to reason about control problems using a generalized framework.  It's how the "pros" do it.  But try to explain equivalent concepts in a high school physics class would be problematic, as most would simply not yet have had the mathematical background or understanding.  There is little value in describing some other way of solving those problems, because that's not how the problems are actually solved.  Hence you may have been exposed to quite a number of simplifications and approximations.  These are not necessarily wrong, but it will require some additional effort to extend a high school understanding to a full appreciation of Apollo.

Those same methods used today to control spacecraft were used in Apollo -- and in many cases developed for Apollo.  In addition to the modern references, I have several feet of shelf space containing papers written back in the 1960s.  The same mind-numbing math appears in them, in some cases even more complicated:  the LM, for example, used a non-orthogonal set of control axes in order simplify control along its specialized flight path.  This is important because if Apollo were hoaxed, then we question why such rigorous underpinnings need to be provided for a cover story.  And if that rigor actually pans out in real life, then what was to prevent Apollo from actually working?  A throw-away cover story abandons detail after a certain amount of effort.  And diligent students will subsequently discover that deficiency.  Conversely, successful deception avoids verifiable details.  It paints in broad strokes.  NASA provides volume after volume of verifiable detail, and decades of ongoing interest have focused considerable expert attention on that detail.

For example, the design of the onboard computer has survived.  Hobbyists have rebuilt versions of it.  Other hobbyists have written software emulators.  The original computer source code has survived, and runs on those emulators.  It actually does what the Apollo documents say it will do.  So you have to ask yourself why NASA would design a fully functional flight computer and write fully functional computer programs for it if none of that were ever really going to be used.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline bknight

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2015, 10:44:04 PM »
Greetings everyone at this cool web site!

There are two main problem "categories" I have that make it hard for me to believe any human has ever walked on the moon, but there is a common thread in both: my instinct. This will make it hard to question, answer, or argue in any way, my reasons. We can argue until the end of time about whether a piece of data is true of false, but at the end of the day all we have left to form our opinions is our own brains and eyes. Our senses. Our intuition. We decide what we trust as the final step.
While you are correct that we can't debate your feelings, but I suspect your feelings are based on a lack of knowledge, either because you didn't want to look up information that is available concerning the moon landings. or cursory disregarded it.

Quote
The first problem I have is the technical explanations provided by NASA about the Apollo missions. When I go through all the materials available from NASA on the subject of Apollo missions I am left unable to trust what I am seeing. In elementary school we were taught about Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong--primarily what they DID. There was little to nothing taught to us about how. In my late teens I already began to wonder if the moon landings were faked. As an adult this feeling has only grown. Since agreeing upon "definitions" is essential before a healthy argument my feelings about the technical materials almost make it impossible to have a scientific conversation on the matter.

The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.

So there you go. I know this post might not get us very far--some whack-o talking about his own observations and instincts but I would contest this is the most important tool we have for figuring things out. Bless you all.
Again You need to read about the technical.  What they look like to you is irrelevant, unless that is you have a photography back ground and converse about the images as a professional.   Let me give you a link to all the surface images, perhaps you could select one or more and describe why you think they are not taken on the moon.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/frame.html
The rest of the group have given some excellent book and videos.  I'll add one more that tells a little of the development of the Saturn, good stuff
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline bknight

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Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2015, 10:45:37 PM »
I kind of stumbled on your chosen screen-name. "VanHalenBelt" which tells me you haven't really looked into the information available. It is a common error by people not conversant in the subject to mistake Van Allen and Van Halen - even though one is a musician of a sorts, and the other was a well-respected scientist with a very large and well-reputed scientific output through his career.

LOL I just thought he might be a rocker, it could be a joke as well.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan