Author Topic: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon  (Read 13371 times)

Offline mako88sb

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 293
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2015, 11:33:23 PM »

It may seem whimsical and quite non-scientific, but I have done this completely on purpose because unlike 1969 we now live in an age of massive information AND dis-information. This makes navigation of all the data harder than ever. While I may not currently believe humans have ever walked on the moon the situation could change. So, thank you all.


Along with the rock and core samples the last 5 lunar landings set up the ALSEP's that functioned till Sept 1977 when they were shut down due to budget constraints. While they were functioning, they sent back over a trillion data points of information that scientists from around the world have been studying and writing peer reviewed reports and papers about. So much data eventually led to storage problems as this link explains:
https://poikiloblastic.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/the-long-road-to-alsep-data-recovery/

As for the rock samples, any qualified scientist can request access to them via this link:
http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/sampreq/requests.cfm

Some points to ponder:.
-> Why have the Russians confirmed all 6 of the Apollo moon landings?

-> 400,000 people were involved with the project, yet nobody has come forward with evidence that the landings never happened. Why? Keep in mind that every component for a manned mission had to meet rigorous testing criteria that guaranteed 99.99992% reliability. That's a big part of the reason why all 32 Saturn launches were successful even though they expected a 50% failure rate for the Saturn 1.

-> Scientist from around the world have verified and peer reviewed all of the lunar rock & core samples plus all the data transmitted back to Earth by the ALSEP's left behind. 

-> Apollo 16 included a UV telescope that took pictures of the Earth and other points of interest. So far no astronomer has found any discrepancies with these pictures:
http://airandspace.si.edu/exhibitions/apollo-to-the-moon/online/later-missions/apollo-16.cfm

-> Hoax believers have for the last 46 years tried to find evidence that the landings were faked and have found nothing. The proof they failed is that despite all their efforts, the missions are still in the history books. If the USA had hoaxed the missions, a story of that magnitude would of been seized on by investigative reporters and news networks. Not just the USA but countries from around the world would have gone after the biggest scoop in history. So why haven't they?

-> Russia, China, India and Japan have all flown missions to the moon.  So far, none of these countries have brought forth any evidence that it's impossible to do manned missions to it.
 
-> 3rd party evidence that verify's the Apollo missions made it past the VAB's and landed on the moon as detailed in this link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_evidence_for_Apollo_Moon_landings


Along with the book recommendations others have made, you should take the time to go through some of the pdf's in this link dealing with the design considerations and actual results from the ALSEP's so you can get a better idea about how much work was required to pull off these missions.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/ALSEP/
 
There's ton's of information here including details about the snap-27 RTG that powered some of the lunar experiments using plutonium 238. Here's one for example that explains thermal considerations and also how to fuel the RTG from the fuel capsule stored on the outside of the lunar module:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/ALSEP/pdf/ALSEP%20%23298%20-%20Sum_ALSEPSubPkg2_ThermControlDesign_ATM%20821.pdf


« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:42:46 PM by mako88sb »

Offline ka9q

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3014
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2015, 03:36:11 AM »
It may seem whimsical and quite non-scientific, but I have done this completely on purpose because unlike 1969 we now live in an age of massive information AND dis-information. This makes navigation of all the data harder than ever.
One of the biggest frustrations in debating moon hoaxers is their stubborn claim that can't really know anything, that everything we think we know about Apollo was simply asserted by the government and we're all forced to take it on faith because there's no other way to know.

That shows a complete lack of understanding of education in general and of a science or engineering education in particular. My college lectures weren't just simple recitations of facts we were expected to accept without question, memorize and regurgitate on tests. Yes, many facts were certainly stated but we were also expected to ask why they were true and to understand the answer and see for ourselves that it was correct. In math, we were given derivations and proofs, not just formulas. We had many physics laboratory sessions where we conducted some experiment so we could see, with our own eyes, some particular principle in action. In engineering, we designed and built devices that applied those physical principles toward some goal or to meet some need. If our understanding or application of those principles was incorrect, our devices simply didn't work.

The idea wasn't just to acquire facts already known. It was to learn how to acquire new facts and how to determine that they really are facts.

So the government doesn't just say that we went to the moon. They published detailed records of every mission and cataloged the results: photos, data, samples, recordings. They also published a mountain of scientific and engineering documents explaining in very great detail this is how we did it. An engineer like me can look at those documents and the surplus hardware sitting in museums and say I don't have to take it on faith because yes, I do understand how it all worked. Everything fits together. The numbers all check out. Every subsystem could do what it was designed to do. The entire system could do what it was designed to do -- to carry a crew to the moon and back.

So against all that, why should I conclude that the missions never actually happened?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 03:42:17 AM by ka9q »

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1274
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2015, 06:03:40 AM »
Greetings everyone at this cool web site!

G'day and welcome to Apollohoax.

Quote
There are two main problem "categories" I have that make it hard for me to believe any human has ever walked on the moon, but there is a common thread in both: my instinct. This will make it hard to question, answer, or argue in any way, my reasons. We can argue until the end of time about whether a piece of data is true of false, but at the end of the day all we have left to form our opinions is our own brains and eyes. Our senses. Our intuition. We decide what we trust as the final step.

I'd respectfully submit that there's an extra step you can put into the process - checking with subject matter experts. I'm more likely to believe a car mechanic than my doctor when they offer opinions about the health of my car. But I'm more likely to believe the doctor when they offer opinions about my health. In the case of the Apollo program there are hundreds of experts in all sorts of aspects of the programs. Many are Americans, but many others are not.

For example, I've spoken to fellow Aussies who worked at the Honeysuckle Creek Tracking Station through the Apollo missions. They all have no doubt that when they pointed their dish at various points in the sky during the mission, they were tracking a spacecraft heading from the Earth to the Moon, orbiting and landing on the Moon, and returning to Earth. Now that in itself isn't proof of everything - merely of their part of the mission. But, as others have pointed out, there are the hundreds of scientists who've studied the Apollo rocks and have no doubt that, thanks to the documentation provided, the rocks were collected on the Moon by humans.

Quote
The first problem I have is the technical explanations provided by NASA about the Apollo missions. When I go through all the materials available from NASA on the subject of Apollo missions I am left unable to trust what I am seeing. In elementary school we were taught about Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong--primarily what they DID.

Lucky you. I got taught nothing about space or space exploration at school. But the school library kept me happy with a heap of books.

Quote
There was little to nothing taught to us about how. In my late teens I already began to wonder if the moon landings were faked. As an adult this feeling has only grown. Since agreeing upon "definitions" is essential before a healthy argument my feelings about the technical materials almost make it impossible to have a scientific conversation on the matter.

Can you give us an idea of what sort of feelings? What about them do you find unreliable or untrustworthy or [insert your choice of word here]?

Quote
The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.


Well, why don't you share a few with us?

Actually, why not visit www.clavius.org first and read through that site, then come back to us.

In the meantime, keep in mind the Moon is not the Earth, and the things the astronauts did on the Moon were limited by consumables and the physical limitations of the spacesuits. So what might look fake to you might be entirely reasonable in the light of these limitations.

The other thing to keep in mind with the videos in particular, is that they exist. What this means is that we can point to some videos lasting up to half an hour in which the astronauts start close to the camera and over the course of several minutes move a couple of hundred metres away, all the while moving in a way that doesn't happen on Earth (I'm thinking in particular of the walk of the crew of Apollo 16 to House Rock). If this footage was faked, how was it done?

Then there are the quirky things. Some people have suggested that the conversations between the astronauts and Mission Control were pre-recorded. The problem with this is that Mission Control passed on news from Earth which included live sports scores - half-time football scores, or end of day golf scores. Seriously, if NASA pre-recorded those conversations, how could they possibly know Jack Nicklaus was going to be 3 under at the end of the third day of the Thingamajig Open?

Quote
So there you go. I know this post might not get us very far--some whack-o talking about his own observations and instincts but I would contest this is the most important tool we have for figuring things out. Bless you all.

I'd respectfully disagree and say that instinct isn't that important as a tool for figuring things out. I know mine is next to useless: I remember one occasion when my instinct told me to slow down before I came over a hill and saw a mobile speed camera in front of me; but I also know there have been dozens of occasions when my instinct has given me no such warning.

But, as I suggested, visit the Clavius site and have a bit of a read, then let us know what your questions are.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline nomuse

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 859
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2015, 11:42:18 AM »
Like the 'nick. I have the t-shirt:

http://grok.amorphia-apparel.com/design/vanallen/

Unfortunately there are almost no places I can wear it where people will get the joke. The kind of people who know about Doctor Van Allen aren't usually so familiar with metal as to recognize a band's logo right off. And the people who recognize the logo... (but nay, I won't stoop to stereotypes about rock musicians. Okay, maybe drummers.)

(I also have this one: http://www.spreadshirt.com/darmok-and-jilad-C3376A5492607?gclid=CKGNx_PrycgCFYdbfgoda64JIA&ef_id=VeyZ1AAAAZ0nle2T%3A20151017154121%3As which I also have to explain to most people. Sigh).


Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2015, 11:50:16 AM »
Like the 'nick. I have the t-shirt:

http://grok.amorphia-apparel.com/design/vanallen/

Unfortunately there are almost no places I can wear it where people will get the joke. The kind of people who know about Doctor Van Allen aren't usually so familiar with metal as to recognize a band's logo right off. And the people who recognize the logo... (but nay, I won't stoop to stereotypes about rock musicians. Okay, maybe drummers.)

(I also have this one: http://www.spreadshirt.com/darmok-and-jilad-C3376A5492607?gclid=CKGNx_PrycgCFYdbfgoda64JIA&ef_id=VeyZ1AAAAZ0nle2T%3A20151017154121%3As which I also have to explain to most people. Sigh).
Cool shirt but I'm past wearing logo embossed t-shirts.  maybe 30 years ago.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline nomuse

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 859
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2015, 11:59:23 AM »
Yah...my response to the idea that the science behind Apollo is being distorted in order to make the project seem plausible usually that "there is no bright line." That is; there isn't a visible break between any of the science that is pointed to, and the science that can be demonstrated on my kitchen table.

This is not to say such a distortion is impossible, but it would be mind-bogglingly difficult. And where would the lacunae lie? Take, say, problems a hoax believer might have with the radio link. I only work with low-powered FM radios across extremely short distances. But when I attempt to apply the tools used by broadcast engineers, they seem to give results that agree with my experience. So I know the physics is "correct" at my level. I suspect very strongly that it is "correct" at the level of those broadcast professionals, and it would be a little odd to think that they are all either grossly incompetent or in on a massive conspiracy.

And they say that when they look at the Apollo equipment, link budgets, etc., all the tools that NASA used seem to work for them and agree with the experience they have with their own equipment. So I don't see a break from me to the pros, and the pros don't see a break from them to people who actually do space-based applications. Okay, maybe not the cleanest example. But you get the idea.

The other problem being; assume you hide the truth of Apollo at some arbitrary point safely above any physics I'm likely to use in my daily life. The gotcha here is "likely." What if I go to a Maker Faire and get enthused about something more scientifically advanced than my usual fare, and that ends up on my kitchen table? How does the hoax accommodate not only people who are at vastly different experience levels, but people who learn and experiment and move upwards?

That's the problem, whether you are talking Apollo Hoax or 9-11; it requires that all the people being lied to are stable at a platform of limited understanding in all the required sciences, and that only a selected few are privy to the dangerous science that disproves the hoax; a selected few that can be suborned. The hoax believers don't see to understand the way those sciences they point at as potentially false have in fact permeated entire industries and are the daily accomplishment (and thus, daily tested) by millions of people spread out across industries governmental, private, and personal/hobby.

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2015, 01:46:45 PM »
Since agreeing upon "definitions" is essential before a healthy argument my feelings about the technical materials almost make it impossible to have a scientific conversation on the matter.

Quote
The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.

Both these statements are bare assertion and present you with a dichotomy. On one hand you argue that it is impossible to argue technical matters, but on the other you are not prepared to offer any insight in to the technical matters which you disagree upon.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2015, 02:56:14 PM »
Greetings everyone at this cool web site!

There are two main problem "categories" I have that make it hard for me to believe any human has ever walked on the moon, but there is a common thread in both: my instinct. This will make it hard to question, answer, or argue in any way, my reasons. We can argue until the end of time about whether a piece of data is true of false, but at the end of the day all we have left to form our opinions is our own brains and eyes. Our senses. Our intuition. We decide what we trust as the final step.

The first problem I have is the technical explanations provided by NASA about the Apollo missions. When I go through all the materials available from NASA on the subject of Apollo missions I am left unable to trust what I am seeing. In elementary school we were taught about Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong--primarily what they DID. There was little to nothing taught to us about how. In my late teens I already began to wonder if the moon landings were faked. As an adult this feeling has only grown. Since agreeing upon "definitions" is essential before a healthy argument my feelings about the technical materials almost make it impossible to have a scientific conversation on the matter.

The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.

So there you go. I know this post might not get us very far--some whack-o talking about his own observations and instincts but I would contest this is the most important tool we have for figuring things out. Bless you all.
My bolding, well all I have to say concerning your lack of initiative in typing your concerns, then no one will be able to help you see why they are not in error or that they looked stage or faked.  The choice is yours really learn or continue to be ignorant of the events of Apollo.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline PUshift

  • Mercury
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • roger, we got pushift down here too
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2015, 03:31:30 PM »
They have always looked fake to me.
That seems to be understandable for an earthbound "common sense"/instinct in the first place. Since our ancestors never experienced a space environment it stays i.e. completely counter-intuitive to have a black sky at bright daylight.

It may never look like this from earth, but on the moon it actually does. You can not feel that. That´s why knowledge counts more than "looks staged for me".

Offline raven

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2015, 03:49:43 PM »
They have always looked fake to me.
That seems to be understandable for an earthbound "common sense"/instinct in the first place. Since our ancestors never experienced a space environment it stays i.e. completely counter-intuitive to have a black sky at bright daylight.

It may never look like this from earth, but on the moon it actually does. You can not feel that. That´s why knowledge counts more than "looks staged for me".
Indeed. Also, the moon has no atmosphere, so no atmospheric haze, and has no features, like trees, to give an obvious sense of scale, meaning far away objects can look quite a bit closer.

Offline nomuse

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 859
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2015, 01:32:50 AM »
"Common Sense" isn't a description of a methodical, scientific understanding. It is the description of what "looks right" and "feels right" to experience (personal and evolutionary) in one of the stranger places of the universe; deep in a gravity well under a crushing envelope of gas and at a temperature almost exactly the triple point of water. Almost nothing behaves "normally" down here -- not, at least, by the standards of the universe.

(And throw in...at one-meter scale, with reaction speed and average momentum and muscle power also tuned to within a magnitude of that same meter stick applied as acceleration or volume filled with that much water. We really haven't much instinct or "common sense" for what happens around masses much bigger than we can lift, motions faster than we can run, or anything scaled a magnitude smaller or larger than we are.)

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2015, 01:48:06 AM »
"Common Sense" isn't a description of a methodical, scientific understanding.

It's the antithesis of it.  We evolved the scientific method precisely because intuition is so often wrong.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Apollo 957

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2015, 06:54:15 AM »
The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.

But you have no reference points other than your own experience on Earth, which is a totally different environment.

Offline Zakalwe

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2015, 07:04:53 AM »
My main point was to come here and express how extremely valuable I believe our own observations are, and making our own decisions about whether to accept any single piece of data as fake or real. This means not necessarily believing anything blindly, or due to pure faith in an information source, but always "testing".

Observations made by someone with no experience or ability in the field are practically worthless. In law, eye-witness accounts are held in high regards, but not in science. "Testing" and checking sources is a good way to winnow real knowledge from a mountain of garbage, but don't fall foul of the Dunning-Kruger effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect


While I may not currently believe humans have ever walked on the moon the situation could change. So, thank you all.
Personal belief makes no difference to the facts. In fact, allowing personal belief to sway you is a common logical fallacy. Please don't confuse a belief with an evidenced fact, or fall into the whole post-modernist fallacy of "I'm entitled to my belief and you must respect my belief in the same way as facts". I respect your right to hold any belief, but kindly request that you respect my right to point and laugh if your belief is utter nonsense.  ;)
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline ChrLz

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
Re: Two Reasons Why I Think No Humans Have Walked On The Moon
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2015, 07:56:19 AM »
Since agreeing upon "definitions" is essential before a healthy argument my feelings about the technical materials almost make it impossible to have a scientific conversation on the matter.
Quote
The second problem I have is my own observations of the pictures and videos of humans on the moon. They look staged and fake to me for more reasons than I would ever want to type. They have always looked fake to me.

Both these statements are bare assertion and present you with a dichotomy. On one hand you argue that it is impossible to argue technical matters, but on the other you are not prepared to offer any insight in to the technical matters which you disagree upon.
Further to that, Vanhalenbelt...
1. Why would your 'feelings' make it so impossible to discuss - what part do they play in a conversation about science and logic and evidence?

2. Will you at some stage be specific and bring examples?  Just pick a couple of the things that have left you so in doubt, or that look the most 'fake'.  Please pick the best that you have.

If those best examples (and thus your 'feelings') can be shown to be incorrect, would you change your position?