Author Topic: Orion shielding from radiation.  (Read 23681 times)

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2015, 11:04:50 AM »
OK, it looks like Aug 2 was 1.0 E-4 with a few E-5's.  Not being a expert on the values what would be a dangerous level?  From past questions regarding this subject, Jay has indicated it is Not necessarily but some other characteristic.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2015, 11:19:11 AM »
1972 SOLRAD (8-20A) DAILY BACKGROUND LEVELS (WATTS/METER*2)
=======================================================================
Day   Jan    Feb    Mar    Apr    May    Jun    Jul    Aug    Sep    Oct    Nov    Dec
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1 7.4E-6 4.2E-6 1.2E-5 2.9E-6 2.9E-6 7.0E-6 6.8E-6 4.6E-5 2.9E-5 1.4E-5 1.3E-5 4.5E-6   
 2 4.2E-6 4.4E-6 1.2E-5 3.2E-6 2.8E-6 6.4E-6 7.3E-6 1.0E-4 2.6E-5 1.0E-5 1.2E-5 4.3E-6
 3 3.5E-6 5.0E-6 9.5E-6 3.9E-6 3.4E-6 8.5E-6 1.0E-5 3.5E-5 2.1E-5 9.3E-6 1.0E-5 3.9E-6
 4 2.4E-6 4.3E-6 1.1E-5 4.4E-6 3.7E-6 8.6E-6 1.3E-5 4.3E-5 1.6E-5 7.0E-6 9.4E-6 3.2E-6
 5 2.8E-6 5.2E-6 1.3E-5 5.1E-6 4.3E-6 1.4E-5 1.1E-5 2.8E-5 1.7E-5 6.2E-6 9.5E-6 3.4E-6
   
 6 3.6E-6 4.6E-6 1.6E-5 6.0E-6 6.1E-6 1.1E-5 1.4E-5 2.7E-5 1.9E-5 7.0E-6 7.7E-6 3.2E-6
 7 3.3E-6 4.7E-6 1.3E-5 6.7E-6 6.0E-6 9.6E-6 1.1E-5 3.9E-5 1.1E-5 5.8E-6 4.6E-6 6.6E-6
 8 2.8E-6 6.9E-6 1.1E-5 6.3E-6 6.5E-6 1.3E-5 9.6E-6 3.0E-5 1.6E-5 7.1E-6 2.8E-6 8.5E-6
 9 3.3E-6 7.8E-6 1.0E-5 8.6E-6 7.9E-6 1.5E-5 8.6E-6 2.8E-5 1.4E-5 8.9E-6 3.3E-6 7.0E-6
10 2.3E-6 8.9E-6 8.2E-6 6.5E-6 9.6E-6 1.1E-5 7.0E-6 3.1E-5 1.2E-5 8.8E-6 4.7E-6 8.7E-6
   
11 4.4E-6 8.9E-6 8.7E-6 6.1E-6 1.4E-5 1.0E-5 7.9E-6 3.3E-5 8.6E-6 8.3E-6 5.6E-6 9.6E-6
12 5.2E-6 8.0E-6 8.0E-6 5.3E-6 1.4E-5 2.2E-5 7.8E-6 3.0E-5 6.8E-6 6.9E-6 5.4E-6 1.9E-5
13 6.1E-6 1.1E-5 9.5E-6 5.5E-6 1.7E-5 1.7E-5 7.9E-6 1.7E-5 5.9E-6 7.3E-6 4.8E-6 1.6E-5
14 7.0E-6 9.9E-6 8.6E-6 6.6E-6 1.8E-5 1.2E-5 1.1E-5 1.1E-5 6.4E-6 1.2E-5 4.3E-6 1.3E-5
15 5.2E-6 1.8E-5 1.0E-5 6.8E-6 1.7E-5 1.3E-5 9.3E-6 9.0E-6 7.9E-6 1.0E-5 3.5E-6 1.2E-5
   
16 8.8E-6 1.5E-5 8.9E-6 6.6E-6 1.3E-5 1.5E-5 6.6E-6 7.8E-6 8.1E-6 1.2E-5 4.3E-6 1.0E-5
17 4.7E-6 2.1E-5 8.1E-6 7.4E-6 1.1E-5 1.6E-5 6.5E-6 8.8E-6 7.3E-6 1.3E-5 5.5E-6 1.3E-5
18 4.5E-6 2.5E-5 8.4E-6 8.6E-6 1.2E-5 1.1E-5 4.3E-6 1.0E-5 1.2E-5 1.1E-5 8.2E-6 1.5E-5
19 8.4E-6 1.9E-5 9.0E-6 6.3E-6 8.3E-6 1.0E-5 4.6E-6 1.5E-5 1.2E-5 1.0E-5 8.9E-6 1.2E-5
20 6.7E-6 2.1E-5 9.5E-6 4.3E-6 8.5E-6 1.0E-5 4.9E-6 2.1E-5 1.6E-5 1.5E-5 1.0E-5 9.2E-6
   
21 6.5E-6 1.9E-5 9.5E-6 4.1E-6 7.6E-6 9.8E-6 7.3E-6 1.7E-5 1.8E-5 2.6E-5 1.0E-5 1.0E-5
22 9.6E-6 2.1E-5 8.5E-6 4.4E-6 8.3E-6 7.8E-6 6.1E-6 1.7E-5 2.6E-5 3.5E-5 9.9E-6 1.3E-5
23 1.3E-5 1.5E-5 9.1E-6 4.4E-6 1.3E-5 7.0E-6 7.6E-6 1.9E-5 1.8E-5 5.7E-5 1.3E-5 8.7E-6
24 1.3E-5 1.3E-5 8.7E-6 4.4E-6 3.1E-5 7.9E-6 5.6E-6 1.9E-5 1.5E-5 5.7E-5 1.4E-5 7.3E-6
25 1.1E-5 1.1E-5 5.8E-6 4.4E-6 1.5E-5 7.0E-6 4.9E-6 2.1E-5 1.2E-5 6.6E-5 1.3E-5 9.0E-6
   
26 1.0E-5 1.2E-5 6.3E-6 4.6E-6 1.0E-5 6.1E-6 5.1E-6 3.2E-5 1.2E-5 4.9E-5 1.3E-5 7.3E-6
27 8.5E-6 1.1E-5 5.4E-6 8.0E-6 1.2E-5 6.4E-6 6.8E-6 3.1E-5 1.0E-5 4.7E-5 9.2E-6 8.1E-6
28 7.7E-6 1.0E-5 5.8E-6 5.3E-6 2.2E-5 7.2E-6 8.8E-6 3.5E-5 1.1E-5 5.3E-5 6.3E-6 7.8E-6
29 8.1E-6 1.2E-5 4.0E-6 4.2E-6 1.0E-5 9.6E-6 8.1E-6 3.8E-5 1.1E-5 3.4E-5 4.6E-6 1.0E-5
30 8.1E-6        2.9E-6 3.9E-6 7.3E-6 8.1E-6 7.2E-6 4.5E-5 1.2E-5 5.4E-5 5.8E-6 1.3E-5
31 7.7E-6        2.8E-6        8.1E-6        9.5E-6 2.9E-5        2.3E-5        9.6E-6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's X-ray data, not proton data. The SPE event occurred in August 1972. Here is one paper on the subject:

http://emmrem.unh.edu/papers/general/parsons.pdf
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2015, 01:36:01 PM »
I'll keep this for future reference in dealing with the radiation issues during Apollo.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline ka9q

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3014
Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2015, 02:18:45 AM »
http://emmrem.unh.edu/papers/general/parsons.pdf
Thanks for the link; interesting.

Some comments on terminology, since the paper doesn't fully explain it.

"Deterministic effects" refers to acute radiation sickness. "Stochastic effects" refers to increasing the probability of getting cancer some time later, possibly years. The "blood forming organs", i.e., bone marrow, are an important target of radiation because they're among the most rapidly dividing cells in the body. A typical healthy adult forms about 3.5 million red blood cells/sec and 3,500 white blood cells/sec. An acute radiation dose will kill some or all of these newly forming blood cells and result in at least temporary anemia and reduced immunity to infection, which could be what actually kills you. The infection doesn't have to be from an external source; we all carry huge numbers of bacteria (e.g. in our gut) that are normally benign or even helpful.

The classic "stochastic effect" of a sublethal radiation dose also involves the blood forming organs: an increased chance of certain forms of leukemia.

Having been through a stem cell transplant (as treatment for lymphoma, a blood cancer) where this was done deliberately (though by chemicals rather than radiation) I can tell you it's not very pleasant. I survived because I received a carefully calibrated dose over 6 days, then a re-injection of my own uninjured stem cells that had been harvested and preserved, followed by constant medical care for 3 weeks to keep my blood chemistry stable and my body uninfected while those stem cells "took" and repopulated my bone marrow. An uncontrolled radiation dose to an astronaut crew far from good medical care might not do as well.

This does raise the interesting possibility of harvesting stem cells from the astronauts going on an interplanetary flight and storing them frozen (and well shielded) on the spacecraft in the event of a radiation emergency. At least they'd be completely isolated from the world and its diseases, and being in zero gravity would certainly have helped me while I was recovering from anemia. But I'm an engineer, not an oncologist or radiation specialist, and it would be interesting to hear the opinions of some professionals in those fields.

"RBE" is Radio-Biological Effectiveness, the relative amount of actual biological damage for a given amount of absorbed energy. The latter quantity is measured in grays (joules/kg) while the former is in sieverts:

RBE = sieverts / grays

The paper is saying that while they can calculate the amount of energy deposited in body tissue by solar protons, high energy protons are such an unusual radiation hazard that we don't really know how much damage that a given amount of deposited energy would cause. Most radiation exposures (intentional or accidental) are from gamma, which is much better understood. Some are from neutrons; those result from proximity to a small nuclear bomb (Hiroshima or Nagasaki) or to a nuclear criticality accident.


« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 02:29:28 AM by ka9q »

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2015, 06:06:07 AM »
http://emmrem.unh.edu/papers/general/parsons.pdf
Thanks for the link; interesting.

Some comments on terminology, since the paper doesn't fully explain it.

"Deterministic effects" refers to acute radiation sickness. "Stochastic effects" refers to increasing the probability of getting cancer some time later, possibly years. The "blood forming organs", i.e., bone marrow, are an important target of radiation because they're among the most rapidly dividing cells in the body. A typical healthy adult forms about 3.5 million red blood cells/sec and 3,500 white blood cells/sec. An acute radiation dose will kill some or all of these newly forming blood cells and result in at least temporary anemia and reduced immunity to infection, which could be what actually kills you. The infection doesn't have to be from an external source; we all carry huge numbers of bacteria (e.g. in our gut) that are normally benign or even helpful.

The classic "stochastic effect" of a sublethal radiation dose also involves the blood forming organs: an increased chance of certain forms of leukemia.

Having been through a stem cell transplant (as treatment for lymphoma, a blood cancer) where this was done deliberately (though by chemicals rather than radiation) I can tell you it's not very pleasant. I survived because I received a carefully calibrated dose over 6 days, then a re-injection of my own uninjured stem cells that had been harvested and preserved, followed by constant medical care for 3 weeks to keep my blood chemistry stable and my body uninfected while those stem cells "took" and repopulated my bone marrow. An uncontrolled radiation dose to an astronaut crew far from good medical care might not do as well.

This does raise the interesting possibility of harvesting stem cells from the astronauts going on an interplanetary flight and storing them frozen (and well shielded) on the spacecraft in the event of a radiation emergency. At least they'd be completely isolated from the world and its diseases, and being in zero gravity would certainly have helped me while I was recovering from anemia. But I'm an engineer, not an oncologist or radiation specialist, and it would be interesting to hear the opinions of some professionals in those fields.

"RBE" is Radio-Biological Effectiveness, the relative amount of actual biological damage for a given amount of absorbed energy. The latter quantity is measured in grays (joules/kg) while the former is in sieverts:

RBE = sieverts / grays

The paper is saying that while they can calculate the amount of energy deposited in body tissue by solar protons, high energy protons are such an unusual radiation hazard that we don't really know how much damage that a given amount of deposited energy would cause. Most radiation exposures (intentional or accidental) are from gamma, which is much better understood. Some are from neutrons; those result from proximity to a small nuclear bomb (Hiroshima or Nagasaki) or to a nuclear criticality accident.
Its a great event that you survived and shared the experience.  And to be such a valued member of the society. Very nice explanation of the terms of the report.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline ka9q

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3014
Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2015, 07:55:54 PM »
Its a great event that you survived and shared the experience.  And to be such a valued member of the society. Very nice explanation of the terms of the report.
Thank you. Hematopoietic (blood forming) stem cell transplants (formerly known as "bone marrow" transplants) have become pretty routine and the risks have been minimized through long and hard-fought experience, but it's still a rather unpleasant experience. Nevertheless I have nothing but admiration for my surgeons and nurses who helped me through it.

The interesting thing is how similar my experience was to that of radiation poisoning even though I received no radiation. Apparently the effects of chemo are remarkably similar. From what I've read, my experience was roughly comparable to receiving 2 Sv of whole body radiation; enough to make you pretty sick but survivable with good medical care. You feel reasonably well through the chemo infusions, just as people who receive serious (but not overwhelming) radiation exposures do. You start feeling ill only a few days later as your blood counts begin to drop, just as radiation survivors become ill only some time later (the bigger the dose, the earlier the illness). And I had to accept that my risk of eventually developing a leukemia (unrelated to my lymphoma) is about 5% higher, just as with survivors of acute radiation sickness.

I'm not exactly sure why chemo is preferred over radiation for my condition, but there is one difference between the two: the chemo I had did not penetrate the blood-brain barrier, so my central nervous system was unaffected. Radiation would not have been as selective.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 07:59:48 PM by ka9q »