Author Topic: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage  (Read 149377 times)

Offline Glom

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2012, 02:09:19 AM »
What's more is that my eye balling suggests the change in sun angle is more like a fifth of a degree so his first assertion is way out.

Some people need to learn trigonometry and understand that a small change in sun angle when the sun is low leads to big changes in shadow length.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2012, 05:52:27 AM »
Profmunkin:

What was the frame rate of the clip you took those pictures from?

What was the frame rate of the DAC at the time the film was exposed?

Have you performed any analysis as to when those images took place in the real time of the EVA? There are some clear markers in there, such as the number of footprints, the positioning of the TV camera and the erection of the flag.

Have you accounted for the low sun angle in working out the effect on the LM shadow?

If the answer to any of these questions is 'no' or 'I don't know', how do you defend your conclusion?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline gwiz

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2012, 07:12:00 AM »
To get some perspective, the LM, which is 5.5m tall, will cast a shadow over a flat plane 31.2m long with a Sun angle of 10°.
...and of course the lunar surface is far from flat.  The shadow will be longer and move faster on a surface sloping down away from the LM than on a surface sloping up away from it.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 07:14:27 AM by gwiz »
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
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Offline Kiwi

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2012, 07:28:53 AM »
Have you performed any analysis as to when those images took place in the real time of the EVA? There are some clear markers in there, such as the number of footprints, the positioning of the TV camera and the erection of the flag.

There are also things like the focal length of the camera lens (in this case a wide-angle lens will "speed up" the apparent shortening of the LM's shadow) and also the slope of the ground on which the shadow falls.  It is well-known that the ground slopes gently downward to the front right of the LM, and that is the reason why, during the flag-raising, Armstrong and Aldrin cast very different shadow lengths, but later as they move to the right of the LM their shadow-lengths equalise when they fall on flatter ground.
 
But awww, c'mon Jason, you're asking him for real information and evidence?  How unkind of you. :-)

To answer such things he will have to refer to things like the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal to sort out the timing.  That is, the record of Armstrong and Aldrin conducting their EVA on the moon -- and he probably believes they were never on the moon anyway.

At another forum a few months ago a hoax-believer used the record of the astronauts on the moon and their relationship to the command module orbiting above them to "prove" in his own mind that they were never there.  That his arguments were circular and totally unconvincing to onlookers just never seemed to tell his intellect anything.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 07:40:49 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline Glom

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2012, 07:59:57 AM »
Why no response?

Offline profmunkin

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012, 11:37:07 AM »
No response, because I have been trying to determine the frame rate and Sun angles.
Thank you for the alternative opinions on interpreting these photos.

Is the Sun angle 10 or 11 degrees?
Because it appears that it is closer to 30 degrees based on the measurements of astronauts and their shadows.

Offline twik

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2012, 04:43:54 PM »
Since the video is continuous, would it not be reasonable to expect, if the OP's position is correct, that the sun would either be describing a "start-stop" sort of motion, or that the astronauts would be in twilight before they finished the excursion with the sun racing across the sky? Both of which would be sort of noticable, I think.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2012, 07:43:55 PM »
Because it appears that it is closer to 30 degrees based on the measurements of astronauts and their shadows.

Whose measurements are you referring to?  Please provide a citation. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2012, 01:39:56 AM »
The thing is, Profmunkin, it isn't really necessary to do any of those things if you want to use the LM shadow as a factor in your argument. The time that the DAC started recording and the time it stopped are known, so why not simply compare the shadow at the beginning of the film and at the very end of it, rather than select random images from the film and try to work out the timings?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Glom

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2012, 02:31:22 AM »
No response, because I have been trying to determine the frame rate and Sun angles.
Thank you for the alternative opinions on interpreting these photos.

Is the Sun angle 10 or 11 degrees?
Because it appears that it is closer to 30 degrees based on the measurements of astronauts and their shadows.

30? Hardly. They arrived at the crack of dawn.

Offline gwiz

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2012, 06:14:29 AM »
No response, because I have been trying to determine the frame rate and Sun angles.
I'll give you a hint.  Here's Aldrin in the LM before he joins Armstrong on the lunar surface:
"Okay. I got the camera on at one frame a second"
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
...the ascent module ... took off like a rocket - Moon Man

Offline Trebor

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2012, 06:25:25 AM »
No response, because I have been trying to determine the frame rate and Sun angles.

Should you have not tried to look for these beforehand?

Is the Sun angle 10 or 11 degrees?
Because it appears that it is closer to 30 degrees based on the measurements of astronauts and their shadows.

The angle of the sun was 10 degrees at the time, date and location they landed at. 15 at the end of the EVA.
Where are your calculations for the 30?

Offline gwiz

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2012, 07:25:05 AM »
No response, because I have been trying to determine the frame rate and Sun angles.
Still no response, so here's another hint:
You can estimate the astronaut's shadow length in your picture 5 by comparing it with the size of the flag, which lies in about the same direction.
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
...the ascent module ... took off like a rocket - Moon Man

Offline profmunkin

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2012, 12:02:08 PM »
Using picture #5
 flag is 3.7 units tall
 shadow is 6.5 units in length
 angle of the sun is 30 degrees

Offline profmunkin

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2012, 12:06:30 PM »
If the frame rate is set to 1 frame per second
What is normal frame rate, 18 frames per second?

Problems in delays for posting, the moderator seems to be some sort of control freak, reviewing all of my replies before allowing them to be posted.