Author Topic: Apollo XIII-inconsistences  (Read 123074 times)

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2015, 04:25:46 PM »
It seems to have been a mostly conservative decision.   Yes they would have been able to add more speed on the return leg, but they didn't need more speed, they needed fewer unknowns.

AIUI, re-entry is a precise manoeuvre that has upper and lower limits on speed and a very narrow corridor.  More speed would have resulted in the need to shed that speed before arrival at earth, and that would require the risk of additional engine burns. The configuration of the spacecraft was such that these burns would require turning the whole thing end for end to use the LM motor to slow down. Then they would have to turn the capsule end for end again for re-entry. That is two very big additional and unnecessary  risks.
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Allan F

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2015, 04:40:16 PM »
The descent engine died during trans-earth coast. The helium burst disk blew, rendering the engine inoperative. Perhaps the ascent engine still worked? Using that would require them to jettison the descent module - and the big batteries in it.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Allan F

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2015, 04:42:29 PM »
Seagull?

Hasn't been logged in since he posted, so that would be a probable "yes".
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2015, 10:13:31 PM »
Just spit-balling, but is it possible they left the SM in place to protect the heat shield from any of the surrounding debris impacting it, too?
I don't think so. Most of the major debris flew outward, and the relative velocities were fairly small anyway.

Offline gwiz

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2015, 07:15:10 AM »
The descent engine died during trans-earth coast. The helium burst disk blew, rendering the engine inoperative. Perhaps the ascent engine still worked? Using that would require them to jettison the descent module - and the big batteries in it.
Don't think they could have used the ascent engine, seem to remember reading something at the time about insufficient attitude control power for the no-DM configuration.
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
...the ascent module ... took off like a rocket - Moon Man

Offline gwiz

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2015, 07:19:55 AM »
Depends where you are. Most mission timings refer to GMT, which was 19:13. Not such a wow.
It wasn't even 13:13 local time at the launch site.  13:13 was Houston time.
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind - Terry Pratchett
...the ascent module ... took off like a rocket - Moon Man

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2015, 07:47:18 AM »
Hello, I do not speak English, so why I write is what the translator of Google translate in my place, I do not think this means an insurmountable disadvantage because I can read to you without drawbacks, however Anador think my message in language Original (Spanish) case.

Welcome to the board. Hopefully the translation should not cause to many problems, but translation software is not perfect, so misunderstandings may arise.

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The first thing I want to point out is that it is too coincidental that the only mission went wrong, the only one with such bad luck has been the No. 13 ... which could be a coincidence but it also decided that NASA took off at exactly 13 hours and 13 minutes ...  :o WOW !!! one would think the script for this movie had been previously written.

Coincidences happen. In the case of the Apollo 13 incident, too many small and unrelated things came together for there to be any great significance. The launch time was 13.13 at Mission control, 14.13 at the launch site, and 19.13 GMT (or UTC). This timing was dictaed by the planned landing site.

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The second thing that has struck me is these strange images where we see the separate command module service module in lunar orbit (?) Why this maneuver would do if NASA says the CSM completely returned to Earth?

They are not in lunar orbit, only flying round the Moon once to return to Earth. The pictures are taken through the docking window at the top of the LM (visible on the video you linked to at 20:00), and from that angle the conical command module is clearly visible, but the cylindrical service module is hidden behind it. It's still there, just not visible in the picture due to perspective.

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The third question comes from this video, and section runs from 19:23 to 20.11 minutes, we see Fred Haise being filmed and then the camera goes to LM where the other two atronautas appear ... who filmed this scene if only were three on board?

Haise was holding the camera. Notice he only appears briefly at the edge of the frame, we never see all of him, and he has one arm extended out of shot. Movie camera selfie, and probably unintentional.

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Fourth I have deep doubts about the flight plan provisions, as NASA crew used the lander as a lifeboat, and here are two issues to resolve, the first is how could the small motor LM to get the drive and autonomy necessary if (as the very NASA) Armstrong barely six seconds of fuel left over for Apollo 11 landing on the moon, with the aggravating circumstance that now had to carry the dead weight of nearly 30 tons of useless weight of CS.

It did not need to. It only had to adjust the course of the spacecraft that was already moving at several thousand mph such that it would swing around the moon and return to Earth.

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And this is where we find the pretext advanced by NASA (?) They did so to protect the heat shield of the capsule and this does sound like nonsense, why would you look both toughest part of the whole Saturn rocket? if the fragile construction of the LM had no objection to travel through empty space, it is not then understand much care for a shield designed to survive the terrible demands imposed reentry into the atmosphere.

The heat shield is not the toughest part of the craft except in the situation of re-entry. It was designed to char and burn away, thus taking the heat of re-entry with it and away from the command module. However, if it were exposed to the vacuum of space, which is a very effective heat sink, the cooling process might crack the heat shield, or it might impact some of the debris from the oxygen tank explosion, or uneven heating of the spacecraft by the Sun might cause it to crack. That would make it useless. Better to protect it from  all those things and make sure it would work when it was needed.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Allan F

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2015, 08:53:06 AM »
The descent engine died during trans-earth coast. The helium burst disk blew, rendering the engine inoperative. Perhaps the ascent engine still worked? Using that would require them to jettison the descent module - and the big batteries in it.
Don't think they could have used the ascent engine, seem to remember reading something at the time about insufficient attitude control power for the no-DM configuration.

How could that be - the attitude control system was not dependent on the descent stage?
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2015, 11:26:26 AM »
I wonder if it was less to do with dependency on the descent stage and the position of the LM attitude control system in relation to the centre of mass? Dropping the descent stage sheds a fair chunk of mass at one end of the stack, and your attitude control system is then basically right at the end of the CSM-ascent stage arrangement. Intuitively that doesn't seem the best place to put it, though I am well aware of how counter-intuitive a lot of these things are, so I await the word of a more qualified person... :)
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Allan F

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2015, 11:34:19 AM »
Shouldn't really matter - it would just make it more effective. Moving the end of the stick instead of twisting the center.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2015, 01:27:22 PM »
AIUI, re-entry is a precise manoeuvre that has upper and lower limits on speed and a very narrow corridor.

Quite right.  A13 had a reentry velocity of 36,210.6 ft/sec,  the second highest of all missions, after A10 at 36,314 ft/sec.  So there wasn't any practical benefit to be gained speed wise to ejecting the SM.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Glom

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2015, 01:42:53 PM »
Depends where you are. Most mission timings refer to GMT, which was 19:13. Not such a wow.
It wasn't even 13:13 local time at the launch site.  13:13 was Houston time.
If you stick to strict solar system, it's always 13:13 somewhere.

Offline grmcdorman

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2015, 07:17:20 PM »
The OP poster has not been back at all; last activity is still the date and time of the OP (i.e. two full days as of this post). Does seem to be a seagull.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2015, 08:26:07 PM »
I wonder if it was less to do with dependency on the descent stage and the position of the LM attitude control system in relation to the centre of mass? Dropping the descent stage sheds a fair chunk of mass at one end of the stack, and your attitude control system is then basically right at the end of the CSM-ascent stage arrangement.
I think this was already the case. The CSM with a nearly full load of SPS propellant was much heavier than the LM, so the LM controls worked very differently. For example, a forward translation would turn into a pitch-up maneuver.

Offline DD Brock

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Re: Apollo XIII-inconsistences
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2015, 08:53:27 PM »
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a seagull? From context, I'm assuming its a term for drive-by posters, perhaps?