Author Topic: Reaching orbit with a cannon  (Read 6737 times)

Offline ka9q

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Reaching orbit with a cannon
« on: February 13, 2013, 03:07:38 PM »
Over on Youtube I've been having fun with a troll who claims that rockets push on air and therefore cannot work in a vacuum. (I say 'troll' because I can't believe that he really thinks this way, though I suppose it's possible.)

I pointed out that achieving a stable, closed orbit around the earth requires rockets that work in vacuum because, in 2-body orbital mechanics, a satellite always returns to the point in space where it performed its last maneuver. Newton's Cannonball shows this very clearly. If that point is in the atmosphere, then the satellite will burn up after a single orbit.

But it got me thinking; is it possible to achieve a closed and reasonably stable earth orbit using 3-body mechanics? Say you could achieve TLI velocity with a cannon on the earth (let's ignore atmospheric drag and accuracy issues.) You put your projectile into an Apollo-like free return trajectory, but with the return perigee above the atmosphere. What would the resulting trajectory be, an earth escape trajectory or a closed, highly elliptical orbit?

I haven't simulated this because I don't have the tools, but my intuition tells me that it would be the latter. I say that because a TLI creates a highly elliptical but still closed orbit, and passing in front of the moon in its orbit in a free-return trajectory will only lose orbital angular momentum to the moon.

But it might not even be possible to achieve a free-return lunar trajectory with a single impulse within the atmosphere. The Apollo trajectory had a perigee just outside the atmosphere (at its parking orbit altitude) and you can't achieve exactly the same trajectory with a cannon. But it might not be necessary, either.

Another possibility is to aim behind the moon in its orbit, something like the final trajectories of the Apollo 8 and 10-12 S-IVB's. This usually achieves earth escape and a solar orbit, but Apollo 12's S-IVB was known to enter a high earth orbit at least for a time.

Any ideas?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 03:09:54 PM by ka9q »

Offline cjameshuff

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Re: Reaching orbit with a cannon
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 04:23:26 PM »
A closed orbit, sure. Stable? I can't think of a setup that doesn't leave it in an orbit that is highly perturbed by the third body. You could pretty easily reach an elliptical orbit that gets close to the moon's orbital distance, but it will periodically have close encounters with the moon. Careful selection of the orbit might arrange their periods so this happens rarely or leads to circularization or stabilization by resonant effects.

Alternatively, you could exactly match the orbit of the moon by colliding with its atoms. Insertion might be pretty rough, but the resulting orbit would be as stable as the moon's.

Offline dwight

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Re: Reaching orbit with a cannon
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 08:40:30 PM »
Didn't Buzz Aldrin's atoms collide with Bart Sibrel's atoms a few years back?
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Reaching orbit with a cannon
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 11:32:40 PM »
Didn't Buzz Aldrin's atoms collide with Bart Sibrel's atoms a few years back?
Yes. But was it inelastic or elastic?

Offline ka9q

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Re: Reaching orbit with a cannon
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 11:35:19 PM »
but it will periodically have close encounters with the moon.
Wouldn't it lose energy to the moon by flying in front of it, thereby lowering its apogee?

The only way to find out is to model it, I guess.

I did like your idea of achieving a stable orbit co-located with the moon.

Offline cjameshuff

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Re: Reaching orbit with a cannon
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 12:21:23 AM »
Wouldn't it lose energy to the moon by flying in front of it, thereby lowering its apogee?

You mean perigee? Depends on the arrangement. If it ends up "chasing" the moon at apogee on a given orbit, perigee will be raised.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Reaching orbit with a cannon
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 12:30:33 AM »
I realized that after I posted it, as I'd just stated the rule that a 2-body satellite returns to the point of its last maneuver. But because this is a 3-body situation, I wasn't sure what it would do to the apogee.

It still astounds me that the free-return trajectory was even possible. Not only did that require extremely high accuracy in the Saturn guidance system and in tracking but, even more, it meant the guys who wrote the numerical integration programs had to get it right. :-)


Offline Not Myself

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Re: Reaching orbit with a cannon
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 04:37:10 AM »
A closed orbit, sure. Stable? I can't think of a setup that doesn't leave it in an orbit that is highly perturbed by the third body. You could pretty easily reach an elliptical orbit that gets close to the moon's orbital distance, but it will periodically have close encounters with the moon. Careful selection of the orbit might arrange their periods so this happens rarely or leads to circularization or stabilization by resonant effects.

Just at intuitive level (and I know intuition can be dangerous with these things), if you are perturbed by the third body, you're not stable, and if you're not perturbed by the third body, you're coming back to this place again before long.  I think I need to improve the quality of my numeric algorithms before I can work out whether the stablisation or avoidance through proper synchronisation are possible.

Alternatively, you could exactly match the orbit of the moon by colliding with its atoms. Insertion might be pretty rough, but the resulting orbit would be as stable as the moon's.

Well you could do that.  As a practical matter, I am having trouble with an application that wouldn't be served just as well by leaving the satellite in "orbit" on earth's surface.
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Offline DataCable

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Re: Reaching orbit with a cannon
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 10:09:14 PM »
Alternatively, you could exactly match the orbit of the moon by colliding with its atoms.
Ah, lithobraking.  (Regolothobraking?)
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