Author Topic: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?  (Read 16054 times)

Offline Glom

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What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« on: September 03, 2014, 08:16:17 AM »
I watched the commemorations last month of the beginning of the First World War last month and have been working my way through the Wikipedia material on it.

It is quite a thought that one kid with his parochial issues (Austria-Hungary out of Bosnia) could have set off something so massive and devastating.

But in my reading, it does seem like Germany was spoiling for rumble so if it wasn't the assassination it would have been something else. Germany was afraid of Russia's rapid military growth and felt a preemptive war was the only way to avoid a worse war down the line.

Without the assassination, what if war did spark for a couple of years later? Might Russia's improved position have made it quicker? Or would the consequences have been worse with an expansionist Russia (what a ludicrous concept) dominating central Europe after conquering Germany?

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 10:53:58 AM »
It's an interesting question. Certainly the peace in Europe at the time was incredibly fragile, and many nations were spoiling for a fight. A net of treaties and international agreements made a huge European war almost inevitable after what should have been a minor balkan issue. If it hadn't been Princip's bullet (which was itself an incredible chain of coincidences, since he had given up and it just happened that the driver took a wrong turn past the cafe he was sitting in) it surely would have been something else, and from what I have been able to gather about the situation in Europe at the time it wouldn't have been much later either.

However, I suspect the war would have run along very similar lines anyway. The main defning feature of that war was that it was the first major conflict where industry and transport made it possible for huge armies to stay toe-to-toe on the battlefield in the middle of nowhere for years at a time, constantly resupplying them with ammunition and weaponry. It was the first large scale war in which munitions could be made and sent out almost on a par with the rate of their use. It was the first large scale war in which the ranks of soldiers were swelled by whole male polulations of the combatant countries conscripted to the armed forces. Industry and science allowed paris to be shelled by a gun over 70 miles away. Industry and science allowed the aeroplane, only a decade or so old, to be used as a weapon of war. It was the first large-scale war in which military strategy could and did target areas other than the troops on the line. All of this would have been true whenever the conflict occurred, and I suspect this would have had a far greater influence on how the war progressed than much else.

But I could be talking a load of dingo's kidneys, of course.... :)
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Offline twik

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 11:08:54 AM »
I think the War was bigger than Princeps and Franz Ferdinand, and I agree that it would have happened soon anyway. If not for the assassination, then for some other reason.

It's amazing, though, to read about the general attitudes before the war, when people didn't think of it as necessarily a bad thing.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 11:44:13 AM »
But I could be talking a load of dingo's kidneys, of course.... :)

Not at all, the mechanization of killing is one of the prominent features of WWI, to me.  Much as the mechanization of mass murder is to WWII.  Its not that people had not wanted to do those things before, it is just that there was no way to do them until the industrial age had come to the fore.  The realizations of the horrors we are capable of seem to have given pause to those who have experienced them, and their decedents.  But it is not as if we are incapable of doing it all over again.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 12:09:50 PM »
There's a reason so much of the speculative fiction set from about 1885 or so on deals with someone creating a war.  I certainly don't believe all wars are inevitable--there are more than a few that I could tell you exactly how to avoid!--but since the way to avoid World War I was for people to start talking and listening to sense, well.
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Offline darren r

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 01:50:26 PM »
There's a reason so much of the speculative fiction set from about 1885 or so on deals with someone creating a war.  I certainly don't believe all wars are inevitable--there are more than a few that I could tell you exactly how to avoid!--but since the way to avoid World War I was for people to start talking and listening to sense, well.

I think Captain Edmund Blackadder said it best :

....the real reason for the whole thing was that it was too much effort not to have a war.

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Offline Glom

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 04:33:10 AM »
I think the War was bigger than Princeps and Franz Ferdinand, and I agree that it would have happened soon anyway. If not for the assassination, then for some other reason.

It's amazing, though, to read about the general attitudes before the war, when people didn't think of it as necessarily a bad thing.
My reading has given me the impression that most powers wanted to avoid it but Germany, feeling it was inevitable, would rather it happen sooner rather than later, when Russia's modernisation had been completed.

But in the July crisis, Germany was totalling egging on Austria-Hungary but we're trying desperately to make the Ultimatum, and their reaction to the Serbian response, look reasonable. They wanted to look like they were forced into war by the actions of others, ie by Serbia's intransigence or Russia's sabre rattling.

Maybe the German language Wikipedia has a different take on things.

Offline Al Johnston

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2014, 05:32:06 AM »
Robert Massie's Dreadnought and Castles of Steel offer an interesting perspective; showing how German naval policy essentially drove the United Kingdom into alliance with France and thus into the War...
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Offline Peter B

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2014, 09:33:46 AM »
I watched the commemorations last month of the beginning of the First World War last month and have been working my way through the Wikipedia material on it.

I ended up taking the time to read through Wikipedia's article on the July Crisis as a result of a thread on Unexplained Mysteries. The article sharpened my thinking considerably.

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It is quite a thought that one kid with his parochial issues (Austria-Hungary out of Bosnia) could have set off something so massive and devastating.

But in my reading, it does seem like Germany was spoiling for rumble so if it wasn't the assassination it would have been something else. Germany was afraid of Russia's rapid military growth and felt a preemptive war was the only way to avoid a worse war down the line.

Yes, this is my reading too. However the key thing for me is that the German government not only set out to make a war happen but also to present themselves as innocent victims, something which they generally got away with for several decades.

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Without the assassination, what if war did spark for a couple of years later? Might Russia's improved position have made it quicker? Or would the consequences have been worse with an expansionist Russia (what a ludicrous concept) dominating central Europe after conquering Germany?

This is a tricky issue to determine. I suspect you're right - Russia was industrialising and building railways at a frantic rate in the decade or so prior to World War One. The object of these activities wasn't purely military - steel production has many uses other than bullets and battleships - but it certainly would have helped the Russian army cope with the Germans and Austro-Hungarians.

It's also interesting to consider that Russia may well have evolved into a more open parliamentary monarchy as the wealth from this industrialisation funded a growing middle class and (eventually) undercut what support the revolutionaries had.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2014, 10:47:31 AM »
I think the War was bigger than Princeps and Franz Ferdinand, and I agree that it would have happened soon anyway. If not for the assassination, then for some other reason.

It's amazing, though, to read about the general attitudes before the war, when people didn't think of it as necessarily a bad thing.
My reading has given me the impression that most powers wanted to avoid it but Germany, feeling it was inevitable, would rather it happen sooner rather than later, when Russia's modernisation had been completed.

Yes, agreed again.

I wasn't aware of it until reading about it on Wikipedia, but in December 1912 Kaiser Wilhelm met with his senior politicians and generals to discuss Germany's strategic situation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Imperial_War_Council_of_8_December_1912)

Very simply, the generals wanted to attack Russia immediately, regardless of the lack of an excuse - that was how seriously they saw things. Supposedly Admiral Tirpitz wanted an 18 month delay to allow the completion of the widening of the Kiel Canal and the construction of a U-boat base on the island of Heligoland. Tirpitz got his way, and the government seems to have taken advantage of the extra year and a half to undertake a series of very deliberate steps to prepare for war.

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But in the July crisis, Germany was totalling egging on Austria-Hungary but we're trying desperately to make the Ultimatum, and their reaction to the Serbian response, look reasonable. They wanted to look like they were forced into war by the actions of others, ie by Serbia's intransigence or Russia's sabre rattling.

Yes. If you read the July Crisis article you can see how the German deputy foreign minister, Zimmerman, instructed his ambassadors to tell their host governments that the German government had no idea what the Austrians were planning, even as they were helping the Austrians to make their Serbian ultimatum as outrageous as possible.

The key in this is that the Germans had definitely made up their minds to go to war with Russia, but were holding off their declaration of war as long as possible in the hope of hearing a clear signal from Russia. When they heard that Czar Nicholas had ordered mobilisation the German leadership were thrilled, as they were then able to present themselves to the Reichstag as the injured party, despite the fact that they'd been preparing to go to war with Russia almost from the start of the crisis.

The second thing worthy of note in this process is the way the business of "going to war with Russia" meant "occupy Luxembourg and Belgium in order to attack France". Even before the Serbian government had responded to the Austrian ultimatum the German government had sought permission from the Belgian government to march through their land in order to attack France.

I get the impression that a lot of people who don't really know much about World War One sort of assume that the countries went to war in some sort of orderly domino-like process. At the start it was - Austria threatened Serbia, so Russia threatened Austria, so Germany threatened Russia. You might think the next step was that France threatened Germany. In fact that wasn't the case: the French government (1) urged the Russians to act cautiously, (2) resisted early calls from the military to order mobilisation, and (3) ordered its troops on the German frontier to pull back ten kilometres to avoid the possibility of itchy trigger fingers bringing on a war by accident.

Instead, first the German ambassador to France threatened that Germany would attack France if Russia mobilised, and second the German Chancellor threatened that Germany would attack France if it didn't immediately renounce its alliance with Russia.

The Germans thus present themselves as being like a man in a bar who, on seeing someone spill a drink on his friend, immediately turns around and swings a punch at the drink spiller's colleague.

Regardless, I think it's important for people to understand these events in more detail, because I get the impression from the "domino theory on the outbreak of World War One" that the war broke out as a result of a lot of careless blundering by all parties. The more sinister reality is that there were diplomatic mechanisms in place to resolve crises such as the July Crisis which people like the British Foreign Minister Sir Edward Grey tried to use, but they were hamstrung by a German leadership group who very deliberately subverted the mechanisms in order to bring about a war.

In addition, this apparent confusion of the politicians leading to war is unfavourably compared with the vindictive attitude displayed by the Allied politicians after the war in assigning blame for the outbreak of war to Germany. This wasn't just victor's justice, it was in part based on a pamphlet written by the German Prince Lichnowsky, who'd been German ambassador in Britain during the July Crisis. He was at least partly aware of the duplicity of the German government and blamed the outbreak of the war on its actions.

Finally, there's the issue of Britain's involvement in the war, the suggestion being that Britain got dragged into a war which wasn't its business, using the excuse of the Belgian treaty. The reality is that Britain got involved in World War One because a German victory would have been dangerous for British strategic security even if it had stayed neutral. Britain's actions in 1914 were the same as they'd been for a couple of centuries, and would be for another couple of decades - join an alliance against any nation threatening to conquer Europe, as British strategic security lay in keeping Europe divided.

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Maybe the German language Wikipedia has a different take on things.

Unlikely. The historian who brought this version of events to light was the West German Fritz Fischer. His findings basically confirmed Lichnowsky's assessment but also laid out the thinking behind the German government's actions.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2014, 11:15:46 AM »
Zimmerman--now, there's a name that should be familiar to anyone who's studied US involvement in the war!

The name I've always enjoyed for World War I is "History's Biggest Family Squabble."  It isn't strictly accurate, but it's amusing.  And I have to admit that most of the detailed knowledge I have of the war comes from a book I know to be full of propaganda.  It's Rilla of Ingleside, the last Anne of Green Gables book.  It was written in 1921 and is about how Anne's family, including her now-adult children, get through the war--or don't, in one case.  You can safely ignore anything it says about German atrocities, which reads rather like that one Black Adder episode, but there's quite a lot about battles and how it felt on the Canadian homefront.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2014, 12:42:55 PM »
Zimmerman--now, there's a name that should be familiar to anyone who's studied US involvement in the war!

Yes, and in addition to getting his ambassadors to lie in order to help start the war, and trying to get Mexico to invade the USA in order to stop the USA supplying war material to the Allies, he also oversaw the process of transporting Lenin from Switzerland to Finland in 1917. It's not surprising that, according to one author, he can be considered "arguably the most destructive person of the twentieth century".

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The name I've always enjoyed for World War I is "History's Biggest Family Squabble."  It isn't strictly accurate, but it's amusing.

And reasonably accurate: Kaiser Wilhelm, Czar Nicholas and King George V were all cousins.

For me the amusing one was reading somewhere that a Vienna newspaper held a competition some time in the 1920s for the best newspaper headline. The winner was "Archduke Franz Ferdinand still alive - war fought by mistake". Though, to tie this back to Glom's OP, it seems fairly likely that if FF had survived, war would still have broken out within a year or so.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2014, 12:47:31 PM »
Incidentally, I mentioned in an earlier post about the actions of the German government in deliberately and deceptively acting to bring about war. For the benefit of conspiracy theorists who think that Pro-Apollo Nutters like us automatically reject all conspiracy theories, this represents a clear case of a conspiracy theory I accept as real.

Of course, as the conspiracy doesn't involve either the American government or the British Royal Family it's probably not particularly interesting.

On the other hand, if you want a good conspiracy theory, how about this: Gavrilo Princip was a patsy, and the assassination was actually carried out by German Military Intelligence, in order to cause a war.
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Offline Glom

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2014, 02:42:29 PM »
I'm not up to the article on the Eastern front. Don't tell me how it ends.

Actually only semi joking because I don't actually know yet. I know Russia dropped out early to have a Revolution that I'm sure had no long term consequences whatsoever but the foreshadowing of the Treaty of Brest-litvosk in other articles suggests Russia didn't exactly withdraw as the clear Victor. Certainly Germany didn't experience the pincer movement it did in the sequel.

But I'll see how it ends soon.

The article on the Middle East was somewhat lost on me. Unlike the other major belligerents, the Ottoman Empire is pure anachronism now. It's interesting to read just how out of the league they were, getting completely pasted in the Middle East by the Allies while independence movements excised their European holdings. I'm sure I will get to the Turkish war of independence and find out how allied occupation of Istanbul turned out.

I was also interested to here Iraq referred to as such. It has become accepted fact with current events that Iraq was the pure fabrication of some British bureaucrat and the lack of ethnic sensitivity with the lines drawn on maps is what has brought us to this point. But it turns out Iraq did exist as part of the Ottoman Empire so while the lines were artificial, they weren't entirely random.

Offline Glom

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Re: What if Gavrilo Princip had missed?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2014, 11:05:30 AM »
And the war is over.

Sick to think that this was just the warm up round.

Seeing all the different campaigns, you see why it is a world war, despite being centrally between European powers. Those European powers were global, with colonies, possessions and dominions across the globe. War itself was throughout mainland Europe and encompassed most of the Middle East, but with secondary fights between the possessions in Africa and the Pacific. Then you have North America involved due to Canada place in the British Empire and eventually the USA of their own accord. Even South America got represented by Brazil.